The Ten Commandments! (page 18)

Crumpet

He would have destroyed the people who were following the devil who hates good but loves evil.

Incidentally I also think the devil character gets a bad press. He just wanted some freedom from being a droid to god and had the courage to stand up and say no it doesn't have to be this way. Lets us die FREE as the birds if we must than in slavery to God!

hibiscusfire

DB74
Hubiscus your scriptural references would answer the question 'does the bible condemn child abuse' but doesnt answer the question as to whether a child should honour his parent who abuses him...this isnt a reotorical question its a question I have often raised but have received no clear answer to.

How can anyone honour anyone who performed such a dreadful act?

My answer is no!

However:

The Bible condemns violence and violent men.

'Wath' or anger is condemned as being sinful, as is sexual abuse. If the child dwells in sorrow for the rest of her life she would not go anywhere...perhaps kill herself.

The LORD sympathises and offers comfort to those who are afflicted

The LORD does hear our prayers, He does care when we cry. He is there to comfort, guide us and heal us.

The Church (we are the church) has a responsibility to hold abusers accountable and to help victims

The Church also has a responsibility to hold the abuser accountable, to admonish him, to judge (that is, to investigate and discern right from wrong) and to encourage the abuser to change his/her ways

We, today, are encouraged to show a sinning Brother or Sister the error of their ways. In the Old Testament, those who had the position of being the spiritual guides of the God's people likewise had an obligation to warn those who were doing wrong of the consequences that would ensue if they did not change their ways. The words are non-compromising.

Thirdly, the manner in which the abuser is to be admonished (i.e. the spirit in which to approach him/her) is also spelled out for us Not one of us is perfect - our aim is not to condemn the person - whom Christ has called - but to condemn the actions, and try to encourage recognition of the sin, repentance and a change in ways.

We are to shun those that consistently oppress or wantonly harm others.

Jesus laid out a clear and simple procedure to follow in the event of dealing with an erring brother (or sister or father or mother or aunt or uncle etc.

Those, who after several admonishings still stubbornly refuse to change their ways, are to be 'marked' or 'put away' - they are to be 'shamed' to the end that they realise the seriousness of their sin and repent.

Note: in all our dealings and communication with someone who has sinned, with an abuser in this instance, we have to remember that the aim is ALWAYS to try to seek a change of heart and ways in them. Hence it is also our duty to continuously encourage the abuser to face up to his personal responsibility, to repent and to seek forgiveness, and thereby be healed. Unrepentant, they are as the lost sheep in Christ's parable

mrsjones5

Cut and Paste is wonderful

Spook

Hib,

You don't listen. You are a liar. You contribute to the suffering of humanity.

You can deal with reality or not. We have all of us been very generous in the face of your flabby and rambling questioning.

Sparticus and his friends died on a cross as well, to free people from oppressors like the christian fascists.

If you are a lover of animals or plants I believe love would apply also. Do you have a pet? God said " Let everything that has breath praise the Lord" Do you believe animals can sense things too and also what people cannot see? I was very clear on my definition of love and how I apply it. I have no idea what you are talking about. If you want to elaborate on love, I as a published poet can wax ad nauseaum. If you want to have a productive discussion let's get down to earth. Where are you trying to go with this? So when you accept the murderer as he is how would you help him? What if he doesn't want to change would you still love him? Or would you show him tough love and try to reason with him anyway? You're not listening. I accept that the murderer has taken a life that, as a society or individual I judge as unacceptable to take. If I oppose that, then I will work against it clearly and directly. A murderer does not NEED my help. I am the one, or the society I support, who is generating that there is something wrong with the situation. She made the choice she made, and didn't make the choice she didn't make. We can then deal with reality in struggling with the material causes that lead people to make these decisions. Confusing the issue with what *should* be starts to create a barrier from dealing with reality. Everything SHOULD be exactly as it is, given everything that has happened. There is no "should" floating around in the air. If you or I want to struggle for a *should* then we can deal with reality. I'm going to be very blunt and make an assertion for you to deal with: You are purely selfish in your service of god and have no altruism at all. If you weren't getting something out of the deal you would lead a different life. If you disagree with this, then I challenge you to state your morals in your own words and defend them in our polemic. Because, in reality you are being a hypocrite by even talking about murder. You can only argue about who are the *right* and *wrong* people to murder, and who has the right to murder whom, since your imaginary friend and his zombies have been murdering zounds of humans for all of history.

There must be some sort of love in you to feel this way for mankind Spook Again, what is your problem? Why aren't you listening? I have clearly stated how I relate to love as a principal for human actions, and have also distinguished this materially from love as a labeled sentiment. Now deal with some salient points or I will relate to you as a liar and a fool, who, if your god existed, you would shame her.

Crumpet

I love the way you (not even slightly contentiously) refer to God as "her" - Spook!

funkyderek

I once tried to teach my girlfriend's five-year-old nephew to play "Connect 4". I think he had some idea of the concept of the game, but he kept putting his pieces - or my pieces - in when it wasn't his turn, or pulling the bar to make the pieces fall out in the middle of the game, or just throwing the pieces at me. Even when I tried to guide him and make sure he stuck to the rules, he still played more or less randomly. There was really not much I could do. I couldn't teach him to play, as he was really too young to understand. I could win (of course!) but there was no challenge in it, and he wouldn't even realise or care if I did. I'll try again in a couple of years. I expect him to be much better.

Attempting to argue with hibiscusfire reminds me of that experience. I think I'll wait until she shows the necessary level of comprehension before trying again.

hibiscusfire

Diamond:

If God is loving then why didnt he just destroy the devil as well then...that would spell game over surely?

Satan's time is coming surely to be destroyed and all who love evil.

That is why Christ died on the cross. Christ was the living sacrifice. Long ago people sacrified animals to show that they were sorry for their sins. It's different now. All we need to do is accept Jesus as our personal Lord and Saviour and we shall be granted eternal life with God...in peace and happiness.

Satan wanted to become like God. That is why he deceived Adam and Eve in to letting them think they would become like gods.

The bible predicts the things that are to come before the coming of Christ. Are you not seeing these things happening around you?

Hibiscusfire

Crumpet

Are you not seeing these things happening around you?

No but then I don't take drugs ...

Spook

Hib,

One more problem, you lying fool. You spout out one end of your mouth about the love of animals, then bother to mention the sacrifice of animals to show sorrow for sins.

If there ever has been such a thing as sin, then animal sacrifices are clearly a sin, and any god who would accept or enjoy that is a gross and primitive tyrant.

Reconcile this contradiction, hypocrite.

Sad emo

I've been following this thread with interest, puzzlement and amusement I have kept quiet so far. But now you raised something that affected me and I was hoping I might get a decent answer:

How can anyone honour anyone who performed such a dreadful act?

My answer is no!

Firstly, by answering no, you now seem to say that it is ok to break the 5th commandment.

However:

Ooohh there's always a 'but' isn't there!

The Bible condemns violence and violent men.

'Wath' or anger is condemned as being sinful, as is sexual abuse. If the child dwells in sorrow for the rest of her life she would not go anywhere...perhaps kill herself.

Secondly, you say that its I'm sinful for being angry with my father for what he did - now that is just rubbing salt into already painful wounds!! Is there an ounce of compassion in this?

Note:

in all our dealings and communication with someone who has sinned, with an abuser in this instance, we have to remember that the aim is ALWAYS to try to seek a change of heart and ways in them. Hence it is also our duty to continuously encourage the abuser to face up to his personal responsibility, to repent and to seek forgiveness, and thereby be healed.

So I still await a decent answer.

On the Yahweh = Jesus topic:

because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead,

Don't you think this verse is referring to two seperate entities here? Looks plain enough to me. Lord in Greek can mean master as well.

(mrsjones - cut'n'paste - yep, wonderful! EF )

The Ten Commandments!

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