Studying with JWs - Confused, Conflicted ...

by RebelliousSpirit 278 Replies latest members private

• 

  PurpleV

  Welcome!

  I was raised in it, and I had a really unhappy childhood. In school I was a pariah because I couldn't eat birthday cake, send Valentines cards, participate in the Maypole dance, make Easter eggs, color Santas, wear a Halloween costume (my mother made me go door to door selling magazines preaching the good news one Halloween and some lady felt so sorry for me she gave me candy.) I was mercilessly teased and humiliated. I was also bit by a dog out selling magazines in Jehovah's service. My mother would have let me die if I needed blood. Because my parents weren't influential in the cong (no MS, pioneer, occasional spotty attendance) I wasn't popular there either. I was very lonely.

  I also suffered the humiliation of being the only one sitting during the assembly's National Anthem and the only one not participating in the morning Flag Salute.

  I hated being a JW. I almost killed myself at age 15. When I left I was still brainwashed enough to believe that they were the truth, but I had decided that I'd rather be dead than live forever surrounded by nothing but JWs.

  Your baptism as a Catholic won't count. You have to be rebaptized into "God's spirit-directed organization" (ask them to see the baptism vows you'd have to take.)

  Regarding their Bible, the NWT, ask them the qualifications of the translators of this Bible. Did they have advanced degrees in Hebrew and Aramaic, attend any theological seminaries, have any Bible expertise or higher education degrees at all? They will tell you that in order not to glorify any men the translators are anonymous. Fact is they were just regular men who took the original language and changed it to fit their own unique doctrines like no trinity, etc., thus explaining the little tricks like inserting the word 'a' in John 1.1.

  I just got my Masters in Communications from NYU and my thesis was on cults. (I got an A.) The JWs are a cult, pure and simple. You should read up on cults in general, not just JWs. A great place to start is Dr. Margaret Singer's Cults In Our Midst and Steven Hassan's Combatting Cult Mind Control.

  Dr. Robert Lipton (a psychiatrist) has defined 8 psychological themes involved in cults.

  • Milieu control ? total control of communication in the group.

  • Loading the language ? Jargon that only the group understands; this language serves the purpose of constricting the thinking of the members and shutting down critical thinking abilities.

  • Demand for purity ? an ?us versus them? orientation; the group is right, all others are wrong, evil, or unenlightened.

  • Confession ? seemingly designed to make you feel unburdened, in reality the information you give is used against you to make you feel guilty and powerless.

  • Mystical manipulation ? this is a chosen, select group with a higher purpose.

  • Doctrine over purpose ? Members are taught to interpret reality through group concepts and to ignore their own experiences and feelings.

  • Sacred science ? The leader?s wisdom is given a patina of science, adding credibility to his central philosophical, psychological, or political notion.

  Dispensing of existence ? The cult?s totalistic environment emphasizes that the members are part of an elitist movement and are the select of the world, and that non-members are unworthy, lesser beings

  Steve Hassan, a world-renowned exit counselor and ex-Moonie, defines four more critera for cults:

  1. Authoritarian pyramid structure with authority at the top.
  2. Self-appointed charismatic or messianic leader(s), they either say they are God or that they alone can interpret the scriptures the way God intended.
  3. Deception in recruitment and/or fund raising.
  4. Isolation from society―not necessarily physical isolation like on some compound in Waco, but this can be psychological isolation―the rest of the world is not saved, not Christian, not transformed (whatever)?the only valid source of feedback and information is the group

  Dr. Singer has described the mind control process:

  1. Keep the person unaware of what is going on and how she or he is being changed a step at a time .
  2. Control time and physical environment (contacts, information.)
  3. Create a sense of powerlessness, fear and dependency.
  4. Suppress old behavior and attitudes.
  5. Instill new behavior and attitudes.
  6. Put forth a closed system of logic.

  How many of the above can be applied towards the JWs? I would strongly advise you to research this more before you commit.

  The JWs are like the Hotel California, you can check out anytime you like, but you can never leave.

  Good luck

  PurpleV
• 

  RebelliousSpirit

  Have you investigated what bloodless treatments there are, will your insurance cover it, will your doctor go along with it, how effective are they?

  Yes I have. I attended a bloodless medicine/surgery seminar a few months ago (not given by the JW's, I might add). I have researched the matter endlessly. I continue to. If for no other reason than I need to be informed for the sake of my dear husband. I know where to go to receive this kind of treatment, and I am trying to get bloodless medicine instituted locally in our city. My husband will not die if I have anything to say about it.

  Do you realize that if your husband approves a transfusion for your child that he be DAing himself again?

  Because he is married to a worldly person, the "rules" are a bit different (I have looked into all of these kinds of things, lol). I have just as much right to my children as he does. And it would be very easy for him to tell them I gave him no choice in the matter.

  Sounds to be like your husband is willing to say he agrees with WTS doctrine re blood but secretly believe and do another. Why be a JW and can you believe that God would approve of such hypocrisy?

  He says that if I made the decision entirely his, he would refuse blood for our children, period. But because of my not being a JW, he will not just arbitrarily say that how I feel on the situation means nothing. That he would have to take the matter to Jehovah in prayer, ask for forgiveness for making the allowance for his wife, and hope for the best.

  It's just that non-JWs have little idea what the culture is in the WTS until it is too late.

  I can see your point. Though I pride myself on taking nothing for granted and questioning everything. I have looked into as much as I can about the WTS and JW's over the years. I have asked countless questions. I have many JW friends through my in-laws and I have watched their lives for years. I have seen bad things, but I have seen much more good than bad. This is why it's SO hard to know what to do. For years I hated the JWs (not the people, the organization) - thought it was a cult, brain washing, etc. But when I started actually looking into it more, reading a lot, talking to people I started wondering if I was wrong. I have seen "good" JW's and "bad" JW's - a "bad" Elder is what made me hate the JWs in the first place. I did come to accept that he is an imperfect man, however - just as priests who abuse children in the Catholic Church do not represent the whole of the religion.

  ::sigh:: I honestly don't know. But I am going to keep trying to find out. Thanks again for "listening" and responding.
• 

  cyber-sista

  My instinct is - these are MY children, I am their mother, it is MY decision - so back off! But they don't let up. Is that fortelling of things to come, or what?

  A mother's instinct is a natural normal protective response and probably your greatest instinct that something is not right with this picture. I raised my daughter in the Org and when she grew up the WT Org began to put so much pressure on her (and the other kids in the congo) that my mother bear instincts came on real strong and I got us the heck out of there. Even though I had many doubts over the years that I had to stay in denial about this was one of the big breaking points for me that opened my eyes enough to start to see the bigger picture.

  I can only advice like others have before--follow your gut.

  the best to you,

  cybs
• 

  SixofNine

  How is it brainwashing? Well, for instance, look at how comfortable you are with using the phrase "the truth" and "in the truth" already. That is brainwashing if there ever was such a thing. Subtle, but over time, incredibly powerful.

  When I first started reading your post, RebelliousSpirit, I kind of chuckled and thought "well, she's one person I don't need to worry about".

  But honestly, reading you more, and thinking more about how they get ANYONE into their organization, ....well frankly, I am worried for you. JW's simply do not have ANY measurable success with door to door ministry, in spite of being famous for just that. They do have some small success however, with people in your situation.
• 

  calamityjane

  Because he is married to a worldly person, the "rules" are a bit different (I have looked into all of these kinds of things, lol). I have just as much right to my children as he does. And it would be very easy for him to tell them I gave him no choice in the matter.

  Ok so you have a choice now with respect to blood tranfusions. But all this studying with the JW's is leading up to your eventual baptism. They are going to eventually pressure you into this step, if they haven't already. Once baptized you will not have this choice.

  Oh yeah and welcome to the board.

  cj
• 

  RebelliousSpirit

  I was raised in it, and I had a really unhappy childhood. In school I was a pariah because I couldn't eat birthday cake, send Valentines cards, participate in the Maypole dance, make Easter eggs, color Santas, wear a Halloween costume (my mother made me go door to door selling magazines preaching the good news one Halloween and some lady felt so sorry for me she gave me candy.) I was mercilessly teased and humiliated.

  I hated being a JW. I almost killed myself at age 15. When I left I was still brainwashed enough to believe that they were the truth, but I had decided that I'd rather be dead than live forever surrounded by nothing but JWs.

  It's so interesting, the differing experiences of people. My husband was raised in it too and had a happy childhood, never felt like an outcast, had plenty of friends, didn't care about not celebrating holidays, etc. If he had your experience, I probably wouldn't be here with this problem.

  Quick arbitrary question - why did you cross those 2 phrases out?

  Your baptism as a Catholic won't count. You have to be rebaptized into "God's spirit-directed organization" (ask them to see the baptism vows you'd have to take.)

  Yes I know. I have been to a DC. And I have a list of the questions for baptism, as well as I have heard the vows. As I said, I am researching this to death. lol!

  How many of the above can be applied towards the JWs? I would strongly advise you to research this more before you commit.

  I can see how those points apply to the JW's. I have also heard the same said about the Catholic religion from former members. I have a good friend who calls himself a "reformed Catholic" for that very reason. So is the bottom line that all religions are technically some form of a cult or another?

  And the confusion continues ...
• 

  blondie

  Because he is married to a worldly person, the "rules" are a bit different (I have looked into all of these kinds of things, lol). I have just as much right to my children as he does. And it would be very easy for him to tell them I gave him no choice in the matter.

  Don't count on this. There was a very high level case in Canada where one parent was a JW and one was an ex-JW. It was not a pretty situation. In this case it was a teenage girl but it shows that...

  Your husband will be expected to legally fight you in court to block the transfusion. If he secretly tells the doctor he will approve it and then dumps it back on you in public, the JWs will think that the doctor went over your husband's head and he should sue the doctor/hospital. I don't think the doctor will want it dumped on him. Your husband has been out of the WTS organization for some time and you never were a JW so don't understand the situation you are putting yourselves into.

  www.ajwrb.org

  This is a site that deals with JW and ex-JW blood issues, scriptural and medical. I would recommend looking at it and contact some of the people who act as contacts. Several of them were members of the WTS Hospital Liaison Committee in their areas and still have close contacts.

  Love, Blondie
• 

  Ratboy

  I'm curious when you say you have researched the JW's, does that include external sources of information (i.e. not WTBTS literature)? If you are serious about learning the whole truth about the "truth" I invite you to read some background information.
  
  
  http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0802086780/qid=1105551535/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/002-3513994-0900057?v=glance&s=books&n=507846
  
  
  http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/193123230X/qid=1105551552/sr=8-9/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i9_xgl14/002-3513994-0900057?v=glance&s=books&n=507846
  
  
  www.quotes.watchtower.ca - what the organization has preached over the last hundred years. (The organization I left a decade ago is not the same today!)
• 

  RebelliousSpirit

  When I first started reading your post, RebelliousSpirit, I kind of chuckled and thought "well, she's one person I don't need to worry about".

  I'll take that as a compliment.

  I appreciate your insuing worry for me. I am only a little worried myself. I am a strong woman - I keep telling the people in the hall that I wouldn't make a good JW for that reason. Although they still insist that I would. I remember when the Elders first came to our home to talk to my husband about his reinstatement, I specifically said to one of them, "You won't like me, I question everything". The Elder responded, "Actually I would rather you question everything than follow blindly".

  I am in a position where I wanted to take my faith to a higher level to learn more about God and how to serve him. Any religion could try to take advantage of that, I suppose. But as everyone who knows me knows ... I don't do anything that I don't want to do. Hopefully that will work to my advantage in this situation.
• 

  FreedomFrog

  Well...it looks like you've got wealth of information. But there are a couple of things that caught my attention...

  It doesn't seem like being JWs has hurt them in any way, or made them unhappy. Same with most of the JWs I know (family friends) - they are happy to be JWs and they are really great people.

  So what causes people to want to run like hell from the organization? What makes people dislike it so much?

  This is true...they seem to be happy. But what if one of them finds something in the Watchtower or Awake that they don't agree with. Such as the blood issue. Can that one (assuming he's baptized) then say "well, I don't agree with their understanding"? No. I'm in that situation now. I'm not "getting out" because someone offended me or I want to live a "wrong" course of life. I'm simply wanting to get out because I see where they have made mistakes and they will still DEMAND you to believe it.

  If you have the 'In Search of Christian Freedom' by Raymond Franz, on page 18, there is a photocopy of a court transcript of the Walsh case. It shows how the leaders of the Witness's view ones not agreeing.

  The Lawyer asked Fred Franz (he was vice president of the organization at that time) if it was a matter of choice or obligation to accept everything in the Watchtower and Awake. Fred said it was an obligation. Then the Lawyer asked another higher up leader, on page 25 (talking about a false teaching that was taught) "If a member a Jehovah's Witnesses took the view himself that that prophesy was wrong and said so, he would be disfellowshipped?" He said "yes".

  They taught that Jesus second coming was in 1874. They (the Society) misread the scriptures and came to that date. But if YOU or I was to come to a different understanding we would still HAVE to agree with the Society EVEN if they were wrong. Which they were.

  They would receive blood if necessary to save their life, bottom line. I have agreed to try their methods of bloodless medicine first, but if that doesn't work, my husband agreed we would not refuse them a transfusion.

  If this would ever happen and your husband signed the release for the Dr's to give blood EVEN if the Dr's tried everything possible. This would be grounds for DF'd. This wouldn't be a "matter of choice" when it comes to the Society. You could since you're not baptized but he could never without the punishment.

  Just what I came up with the blood issue. If you go and read EVERY scripture on blood ALL of them says "do not eat". The scripture that they use is Act 15:29 which says to KEEP abstaining from these things. The key word is 'keep'. If you start at the beginning of Acts and read that whole book you will see that they were arguing on what laws to keep of the old law. And the old law was to not eat. The Witness's will say "well, it's the same as eating it when you get it through your IV". This isn't true because even the Watchtower points out that a transfusion is just simply a transplant. See Awake Aug. 22 1999 'Are Blood Transfusions Really Necessary?' pg. 31 Par 1. And Watchtower September 1, 1986 'Godly Respect for Blood'

  Is receiving a blood transfusion the same as eating blood? If a doctor told you your body could not properly digest liver and to abstain from it would he consider it unwise for you to receive a liver transplant? No, they are completely different. Eating liver causes it to be digested and its components used as food by your body or expelled as waste. A transplant allows your body to use the organ as a living thing, filtering your blood. It is not consumed by your body. How is a blood transplant different from a liver transplant?

  Let's say that in 5 years the Society says "well, we got that understanding wrong it's now ok to use blood to save a life". What about the ones that lost a child because the obeyed them? And if they didn't obey them and they got DF'd but saved their kid...will they be "reinstated" automatically? No...they'd have to work on getting back. They would still be considered in the wrong for not waiting on the Society to get it right.

  FF