:Can anyone tell me exactly why there are so many who seem to have such regrets, feelings of wasted years, pain, negativity etc associated with being a JW?
I can tell you only my own experience with this. I've been out for 12 years. After leaving the organization I held up a lot of guilt inside about leaving. Of course the shunning was a big part of that, part of me wanted to put up an act to get reinstated. I'll tell you I went to the meetings, I was a good boy at them, but I was very very unhappy. No one knew this except my family, and even they didn't know how deeply depressed I was. I looked around at the people at the hall who were supposed to be my "friends" and they didn't even know me. Then I realize about all the organizational flaws and doctrinal LIES (more on that if you want to know) and I feel angry at all those hours I spent going door to door, without true friends, feeling like an outcast at school. There is some bitterness still, and you will see that from ANYONE who was in an abusive environment. Going to five meetings a week and spending a minimum of ten hours in field service isn't learning anything, it's indoctrination, that's mind control, that's how we were in an abusive environment.
Elders and hard-liners in the hall will tell you I am a liar by definition of apostate for speaking about my experiences above. So ask yourself this:
You say the people at the hall are friendly and happy. Aside from your in-laws, do you hang out with anyone from the KH? Have you ever been invited to any social functions? Aside from studying the literature? I'm sure you have an idea of what friends do together. Shopping, talk about things that aren't superficial (i.e. the weather, work, going door to door), go out to eat (other than in a field service setting).
Is it reasonable for a ten month old baby to be forced to listen silently for up to two hours straight at five meetings three times a week? And he is never to question the validity of the watchtower or else he is "spiritually weak?"
I don't have a clear cut answer for you on the trinity. Ask yourself this: Is it reasonable to use "[]" as often as the watchtower does whenever it quotes the bible?? You have obviously read information on the Trinity from the watchtower. CHECK THE REFERENCES THEY GIVE YOU FOR CONTEXT. You may be suprised what the authors were trying to say in whole, not in part.
Studying with JWs - Confused, Conflicted ...
by RebelliousSpirit 278 Replies latest members private
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Ratboy
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Miss_MG
With all the responce you have received it shoud make you think long and hard before you go any further especially if their are children involved.
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melmac
I love Tori Amos too...
There's an extra reason to slow you down in the study: they must "count time"...
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RebelliousSpirit
Believe me, joining the military was flying in the face of 2 basic Watchtower teachings. staying separate from the "world" and not killing or carrying weapons. That is why the elders interpreted it as disassociating himself, saying he did not agree with this teachings, setting himself apart from the congregation.
I know. First and foremost he violated the JW position of neutrality by joining the USAF.
The fact that his family continued to associate with him was also "flying in the face" of a Watchtower teaching not to associate with Witnesses that are either DA'd or disfellowshipped. Witnesses who do can be disfellowshipped themselves.
Technically it is a conscience matter for parents to have a relationship with their DF/DA child. It is frowned upon, but they cannot be DF'd for it. My in-laws looked into it very thorougly, particularly my FIL because he is an Elder. As long as they do not discuss spiritual matters (which makes no sense to me), it is up to them how they want to handle their DF/DA child. The rest of the family, however, is not supposed to have a relationship with that person - which is what happened. We had a relationship with his parents, but not the rest of his family.
He also needs to find new friends. If his family associated with him during his DAing, then they will if he just stops going, becoming inactive.
All of his friends are outside of the "truth". In the 8 years he was DA he made a ton of new worldly friends, and he still has all of them even though he is reinstated. He has no plans of walking away from any of them either. His best friend is worldly, and just returned home from his tour in Iraq.
Your children are young...are you ready to refuse a blood transfusion on their behalf? Are you and your husband in agreement on things like this?
Yes we're in agreement. As it stands now, there would be no refusal of blood for our children. They would receive blood if necessary to save their life, bottom line. I have agreed to try their methods of bloodless medicine first, but if that doesn't work, my husband agreed we would not refuse them a transfusion. My husband lost his 20 year old cousin in August to a motorcycle accident - his cousin was a JW and refused blood - we know what can happen.
The fact that these sisters will tell you point blank that the Teletubbies are magical and your children should not be involved with them is a bad sign. "Good" JWs do not "impose" their conscience on others. Be prepared for more of this. Remember that according to JW teaachings, your husband makes the decisions. Just say, "I'll discuss it with my husband" to deflect it.
That wasn't me that was told Teletubbies are magical and to stay away, that was someone else on the board relating a story to me. So far, no one has tried to impose their conscience on me with regards to what I allow my children to do. My in-laws have never once questioned me on what I allow or don't allow.
As far as JW husbands making decisions - technically I know that is supposed to be true. Husbands are the "spiritual head". My in-laws are a great example of where while my FIL is the spiritual head of the house, my MIL has complete freedom to do as she pleases. I don't buy into allowing my husband to run my life (I've been down that road, 4 year abusive relationship prior to my marriage) - he knows that, and he would never try.
Thanks so much for your insight - I hope I adequately addressed the things you referred to!
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RebelliousSpirit
Read the Book of Acts. Did people spend months and years studying books before deciding to become Christians?
How many months did Philip study with the Ethiopian eunuch?
The fact is that many accepted Christ in one day.
I thought the point was to study the Bible. As a Catholic of 15 years, admittedly I know little about the Bible and Jesus' teachings. Isn't it prudent to study such things before accepting Christ? I know the complaint is that you're actually studying the WTS and not the Bible - but really aren't you coming to your own understanding as you learn the scriptures? If someone studying with a JW doesn't agree with JW teachings, or think JW teachings are out of line with the Bible, they won't become a JW. How is it brainwashing? Can someone explain this to me?
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RebelliousSpirit
Thanks for sharing your personal experience with me Ratboy ...
You say the people at the hall are friendly and happy. Aside from your in-laws, do you hang out with anyone from the KH? Have you ever been invited to any social functions? Aside from studying the literature? I'm sure you have an idea of what friends do together. Shopping, talk about things that aren't superficial (i.e. the weather, work, going door to door), go out to eat (other than in a field service setting).
Yes I have hung out with people from the KH. Most recently a sister and I went on an evening of mall shopping together. Surprisingly I had a good time, though I had coined her as "stiff" prior to that. Another time a sister came and took me to run errands for the day (we only have 1 car) - she took me to doctor's appointments, shopping, other errands, etc. We went out to lunch together (Happy Meals at McD's - lol).
Aside from those kinds of things, I have socialized with friends from my in-laws hall countless times - dinners, parties, etc.
Is it reasonable for a ten month old baby to be forced to listen silently for up to two hours straight at five meetings three times a week? And he is never to question the validity of the watchtower or else he is "spiritually weak?"
No it's not reasonable, which is why I stopped taking him to the KH when he started getting antsy.
Is it reasonable to use "[]" as often as the watchtower does whenever it quotes the bible?? You have obviously read information on the Trinity from the watchtower. CHECK THE REFERENCES THEY GIVE YOU FOR CONTEXT. You may be suprised what the authors were trying to say in whole, not in part.
Now that is something I don't like, the [ ] thing. I have asked about it numerous times and been told that it's there to make the Bible more gramatically correct and to add to it's continuity. I definitely don't like the [ ] thing. ::sigh:: -
RebelliousSpirit
There's an extra reason to slow you down in the study: they must "count time"...
I do know that they count time. But you'd think she'd be happy considering I have 4 hour studies. And I was studying 3 times/week. And that was "not going slow". She decided she was too busy for 3 times/week, so now it's once a week for 4 hours. Isn't that a lot? lol!
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AlmostAtheist
but really aren't you coming to your own understanding as you learn the scriptures? If someone studying with a JW doesn't agree with JW teachings, or think JW teachings are out of line with the Bible, they won't become a JW. How is it brainwashing? Can someone explain this to me?
You are such a prudent, thoughtful person. I love that you are coming across as totally unbiased here. The Watchtower is certainly biased toward their own teachings, and all of us are certainly biased against those same teachings. I hope you are comparing the types of answers provided here and the types of answers that the Watchtower folks are giving you.
The Watchtower may or may not use brainwashing, depending on how you define brainwashing. What they actually do -- regardless of the label we put on it -- is attempt to isolate you from anyone that doesn't believe the way they do. They forbid birthdays and holidays, the times you would traditionally reinforce bonds with family members that are not Jehovah's Witnesses. They strongly discourage you from spending time with "worldly" relatives and friends and encourage you to preach to them when you are around them, further alienating them from you. They strongly encourage you to both attend and prepare ahead of time for 5 hours of meetings, three days a week. They strongly encourage you to go out in "field service", preaching to others in a group of other JW's on Saturday, Sunday, and any other days you can. The effect of all of this is you wind up only ever hearing the Watchtower's side of things. Whatever you hear often enough, unrefuted, becomes truth to you.
Keep in mind that there is much disagreement among ex-JW's as to whether these alleged mind-control tactics are intentional. Many believe that the Governing Body actually believes that they are heading up God's one true religion, and so anything they can do -- even "brainwashing" -- is in the best interests of the flock if it keeps them serving their version of God. Their sincerity, though, doesn't automatically mean that they are right. (Ray Franz -- a former Governing Body member, now an ex-JW -- believes that they were sincere, but wrong. [Reading his first book Crisis of Conscience would be a very good idea for you. http://amazon.com has it.])
They instilled a sense of urgency in me when I was young that led me to make some bad decisions that affected my future. I didn't go to college, though I could have done so for free. Why waste time in college, when I could be preaching the Good News? (I was praised for this decision by the elders) I never contributed to a retirement plan even though my company had a dollar-for-dollar match, effectively doubling my contributions. Why waste money on a "retirement plan" when the New System is just around the corner? Obviously, I made those decisions myself and I can't blame the Watchtower. But I know I would have made very different decisions had I not been a Witness.
There are people that regularly post on this board that have allowed their children to die because they needed a blood transfusion and the Watchtower taught that they must not accept one. Their children DIED because of the very loose interpretation of a handful of verses in the Bible. I am so happy that this never was an issue in my family, but if it had been, it would be my wife or child in a grave. I can't even imagine the sense of needless loss that would come with that.
One red flag among the Witnesses is this statement: "We don't interpret the Bible, we let the Bible interpret itself." That's hogwash, but I didn't see it at the time. They would read one verse, then skip over to another and say 'See? That's what it means!' when in reality, the two verses were not related. This has the effect of casting their interpretation of the Bible as "God's interpretation". The Bible's a big book. It's not hard to support any doctrine you want using it.
Using your critical thinking and the research tools available to you (internet, library, this board), thoroughly investigate the things they are teaching you. See for yourself how arbitrarily they apply their "Bible principles".
Good luck, and please keep asking questions!
Dave
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blondie
Yes we're in agreement. As it stands now, there would be no refusal of blood for our children. They would receive blood if necessary to save their life, bottom line.
Get it in writing then; have your husband sign a document agreeing to this. I'm sure he has not shared this with any JWs or his JW family. When the time comes and the family all gathers around, will he keep his word or cave in to the WTS doctrine? Have you investigated what bloodless treatments there are, will your insurance cover it, will your doctor go along with it, how effective are they?
Do you realize that if your husband approves a transfusion for your child that he be DAing himself again?
As to being DF'd for visiting with healthy, adult children not living at home, it varies from congregation to congregation. Many elders get unofficial dispensations to have contact while the regular, ordinary JWs are harassed and threatened with DFing.
Sounds to be like your husband is willing to say he agrees with WTS doctrine re blood but secretly believe and do another. Why be a JW and can you believe that God would approve of such hypocrisy?
Well, I'll quit haranguing. It's just that non-JWs have little idea what the culture is in the WTS until it is too late.
BTW, in the late 60's, early 70's there was a 6-month study program in the blue Truth book. People who were not advancing, attending meetings, quitting bad habits and living sexually moral lives, were dropped.
Love, Blondie
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Ratboy
We can go back and forth on brainwashing. I invite you to read some 3rd party literature on Cults and mind control. Pick any of them and see it the shoe fits. I reccommend anything by Hassan.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0892813113/ref=pd_sim_b_1/002-3513994-0900057?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance
or
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1883536065/qid=1105549735/sr=2-3/ref=pd_ka_b_2_3/002-3513994-0900057
If anything you will come away understanding what a cult is and how cults indoctrinate its followers. If anything, it's a nice academic excersice. You can draw your own conclusions.