Studying with JWs - Confused, Conflicted ...

by RebelliousSpirit 278 Replies latest members private

  • SixofNine
    SixofNine

    :It's been proven false by saying that the Bible only refers to eating blood, you mean? I brought up that point to my MIL and my conductor. Both got around it by proving how sacred blood is to God - and brought up the fact that because a person can be fed intravenously, taking in blood that way would be considered the same. It is a far stretch, I will agree. But because it does have some semblance of logic to it, how the heck do I really know what God meant?

    Well, how the heck do you even figure that god authored the words that the JW's twist so insidiously, when you get right down to it? But that is another discussion altogether, I suppose.

    Actually, it's been proven biblically false from MANY angles, not just "eating", though that is a good one. When men did do this in the bible, why wasn't there any punishment? What did Jesus have to say about it? etc, etc.

    It's not just a "far stretch", it's absolute horseshit. A blood transusion IS NOT analogous to eating. If someone tells you it is, that person is insulting your intelligence. Slap them. Hard. :-D

    JW's like to point out that blood is very sacred to God. They then proceed to piss on any semblance of sacredness, but in effect saying that god demands human sacrifice. May as well be Aztecs.

    Take a look at http://www.ajwrb.org/ for in depth analysis.

  • Seeking Knowledge
    Seeking Knowledge

    I applaud the fact you are thinking and that you are truly studying the ins & outs of this organization. I believe that if you are liberal and those around you are as well, this will work out for you and your children. Unfortunately, it may not always be that way for you. You will be treated differently if your husband gets reinstated, that's the bottom line, if he is intent on being a true JW he will require his children to follow it as well. Read this board, you'll find most comments on life as a JW have the same vein. They can't all be making it up!

    Good Luck!

    SK

  • RebelliousSpirit
    RebelliousSpirit
    I believe that if you are liberal and those around you are as well, this will work out for you and your children. Unfortunately, it may not always be that way for you. You will be treated differently if your husband gets reinstated, that's the bottom line, if he is intent on being a true JW he will require his children to follow it as well.

    My husband is reinstated, as I said before (which gets lost when there are 100+ posts in a thread, lol) he was reinstated in October 2004. Anyway, I haven't been treated differently thus far. And thus far my husband isn't hell bent on raising our kids JW. We agreed some time ago that if he was JW and I remained Catholic, they would be raised to understand both religions. What a mix, eh?

    And another point I haven't mentioned as yet - my husband and I also agreed that if we both were JWs and raising our children as such, they would not be allowed to be baptized until they were adults and more able to make their own conscious and informed decisions - 18 at the earliest, 21 preferably. And even my in-laws agreed that this was a smart decision. But that would be the bottom line on that.

  • AlmostAtheist
    AlmostAtheist
    If you and your hubby both know the blood doctrine is a joke, and that's so central to being a Witness, why are you still interested in becoming one?

    I don't know that it's a joke, per se. I don't know for sure if they do or do not have the truth of the matter.

    Ah, well, there's a problem then. You can hardly take a stand on something if you aren't convinced of it yourself. On the other hand, once you *are* convinced, you can't help but take a stand. Since the information is there to be had, why not get it?

    Of course, you should talk to a current Witness to get their side of the story. But I'll tell you what I think their side is:

    When Noah left the ark, God said they could start eating meat. (Man was a vegetarian until then) However, God commanded that they not eat the blood of the animal. (Genesis 9:4) From that time onward, it was deemed a sin to eat blood. Under the Israelites and the law given to Moses, that blood law was expanded to indicate that blood should be poured on the ground, effectively giving it back to Jehovah. (Deuteronomy 12:16) Blood represents life, so taking of a life required giving back the blood. In the christian era, the question arose as to what parts of the Mosaic law would still apply to Christians. Acts chapter 15 discusses this, focusing on the question of circumcision. Finally, in Acts 15:28,29, the Governing Body of that day decreed that circumcision was not necessary. The only necessary things were to abstain from idols, blood, and fornication. So, with the Bible's principle to pour out the blood in hand, and knowing that blood was not to be eaten, should a christian accept having blood pumped into his body via transfusion? Well, consider. If a doctor told you to avoid drinking alcohol, would he be agreeable to you accepting a transfusion of alcohol instead? Obviously not! So clearly, taking a transfusion of blood would be equivalent to eating it. For a christian that wants to please God, there is no other course than to refuse blood transfusions.
    Besides, there are many known health risks associated with accepting blood transfusions, such as hepatitis and AIDS.

    Obviously not a real quote, but I think JW's would be comfortable in saying that states their position.

    My position:

    According to the Bible, including the Acts chapter 15 already cited, the law of Moses was no longer in effect. So any comments about 'pouring it out on the ground' would also be eliminated. However the law given to Noah would still apply. Eating blood is forbidden. Acts 15 says to "abstain" from blood, and some try to say that this word means "stay away from, shun" and carries more meaning than simply "eating". That's true, but in context, this is referring to eating of blood. How can we tell? Look again at the verses:

    Acts 15:28,29 - For the holy spirit and we ourselves have favored adding no further burden to YOU , except these necessary things, to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication. If YOU carefully keep yourselves from these things, YOU will prosper. Good health to YOU !?

    That word "abstain" is applied to "things strangled". (A strangled animal could not have been properly bled, and so could not serve as food) If a strangled animal were left on your doorstep, would this law forbid you from picking it up and disposing of it? Would it forbid you from taking it to a taxidermist and having it stuffed? No, this is about eating. It is the eating of blood that is being forbidden. And remember, the whole Acts 15 discussion is about what existing laws to keep, there was no intent to create new, more restrictive, laws. Thus they say to "keep abstaining," since the first century christians had already been doing this.

    So, is eating blood and transfusing blood essentially the same thing? Their alcohol illustration is a misleading one, since alcohol is a substance, a food. Blood is an organ. The watchtower has on several occassions referred to blood as an organ, even quoting a doctor that said a blood transfusion is essentially a blood transplant. So a more appropriate illustration would be, if a doctor told you not to eat liver, would he be ok with you having a liver transplant? Of course, since they are entirely different things. Blood as food would be digested by the body, blood as an organ would carry oxygen and the hundreds of other things blood does. Eating and transplanting are simply not related at all.

    What about the health risks? This is a totally meaningless point. The question is, does God forbid blood transfusions. The actual effectiveness of the procedure has no bearing on that question. They use the supposed health risks to bolster their case, saying that Jehovah is protecting them from those risks. They suggest that many Witnesses have been saved from death or illness simply by their stand against transfusions. Even if that were true (and I would bet it isn't) it is wholly immaterial to the discussion. The Bible either supports the position or it doesn't, the health risks don't enter into it.

    Whenever I've had a detailed discussion on this topic or on the topic of birthdays with a JW, they always retreat to the "faithful and discreet slave" doctrine. This says that whether they understand it or not, they are obligated to obey the organization. So even if they can't explain why blood transfusions are bad, God still expects them to obey "his organization". However, we just had a good thread on Biblical examples of God punishing his people for following bad direction received through his organization. The people that disobeyed God's organization and instead obeyed God were the ones that were acceptable to him. You can read that here: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/83217/1.ashx

    I don't think you should just assume that their doctrines are unprovable or undeniable. Many of them can be shot down. I have a write up on birthdays on my web site: http://www.thebentinel.com/jw-birthdays.html

    Arm yourself with knowledge. (Like I gotta tell ya that, eh?)

    Dave

  • RebelliousSpirit
    RebelliousSpirit
    Well, how the heck do you even figure that god authored the words that the JW's twist so insidiously, when you get right down to it? But that is another discussion altogether, I suppose.

    I don't know. I have faith that the Bible is God's word. As I'm sure you already know, "Faith is the assured expectation of things hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities though not beheld. . ." (Hebrews 11:1) . I don't need the witnesses to teach me about faith, I have plenty of that all on my own. My faith isn't dependent on my choice of religion, and that exact belief is probably my problem. I have always said that my faith in God does not come from being Catholic, that I can and do have faith in God independent of my religion, and that my religion is simply the way in which I choose to celebrate that faith.

    Something tells me the witnesses don't like that line of thought.

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    About the blood prohibition, and specifically the so-called prohibition on the eating of blood (that is, for example, meat that had not been bled such as meat sacrified to idols), why then did Paul say this:

    "For me there are no forbidden things, but not everything does good. True, there are no forbidden things, but it is not everything that helps the building to grow. Nobody should be looking for his own advantage, but everybody for the other man's. Do not hesitate to eat anything that is sold in butcher's shops: there is no need to raise questions of conscience, for the earth and everything that is in it belong to the Lord. If an unbeliever [e.g. non-Christian Gentile] invites you to his house, go if you want to, and eat whatever is put in front of you, without asking questions just to satisfy conscience. But if someone says to you, 'This food was offered in sacrifice,' then, out of consideration for the man that told you, you should not eat it, for the sake of his scruples; his scruples, you see, not your own. Why should my freedom depend on somebody else's conscience? If I take my share with thankfulness, why should I be blamed for food for which I have thanked God?" (1 Corinthians 10:23-39).

    This pretty much blows the Society's law on blood consumption and transfusions out of the water.

  • RebelliousSpirit
    RebelliousSpirit
    Actually, it's been proven biblically false from MANY angles, not just "eating", though that is a good one. When men did do this in the bible, why wasn't there any punishment? What did Jesus have to say about it? etc, etc.

    It's not just a "far stretch", it's absolute horseshit. A blood transusion IS NOT analogous to eating. If someone tells you it is, that person is insulting your intelligence. Slap them. Hard. :-D

    I will read the site you directed me to for further information. In the meantime, no one insults my intelligence and gets away with it. No worries. There is a method to my madness as well. In addition to this "rebellious spirit" and "lack of humility proven by my unwillingness to submit blindly to a greater authority" - my field of expertise is Psychology, and I'm willing to bet that I can play the game better than they can (and I think that scares them).

  • SixofNine
    SixofNine

    :and that exact belief is probably my problem.

    :shrug:

    Doesn't sound like a problem to me at all, it sounds like a spiritual chastity belt, lol, to keep you from being poked by all them evil religionist. JW's are just horrible, the others can be pretty bad too :p~

    Well, keep that thinking cap on, and be sure to hold religions to a high standard. Don't give your families situation a second thought. They really don't matter, they are comfortably successful as witnesses, and liberal to boot. It's how the lowliest people in a community and society are treated that is the standard to watch, along with how the community allows freedom of thought.

  • Seeking Knowledge
    Seeking Knowledge
    My husband is reinstated, as I said before (which gets lost when there are 100+ posts in a thread, lol) he was reinstated in October 2004. Anyway, I haven't been treated differently thus far. And thus far my husband isn't hell bent on raising our kids JW. We agreed some time ago that if he was JW and I remained Catholic, they would be raised to understand both religions. What a mix, eh?

    And another point I haven't mentioned as yet - my husband and I also agreed that if we both were JWs and raising our children as such, they would not be allowed to be baptized until they were adults and more able to make their own conscious and informed decisions - 18 at the earliest, 21 preferably. And even my in-laws agreed that this was a smart decision. But that would be the bottom line on that.

    Did you marry my ex??? LOL....that sounds SO familiar. The problem was, the time we were together leading up to the birth of our son, he was with me on the whole thing, we had no issues, I had no reason to do the research you are doing. He tells me he wasn't a JW during our time together, but he was quick to bring that into issues with our son later. I myself was not going to church either, I figured it was a personal choice. It only became an issue when he decided to go back to the "fold" and we broke up. When we talked about it, he said the same thing, he would not treat me different, all was well, and he won't allow our son to be baptised but would allow him to make a decision when he's old enough. He even went as far to say that if our son decided he wanted to be a Catholic, he would be ok with that. Which made me laugh (I am not Catholic) But at the same time, he's telling our son that MY beliefs are wrong and what I say is not true, and yada yada yada, giving him no choice in the matter. I guess the point I'm trying to make is be careful. They will say what they need to for you to let thing happen, and still do things the way they believe they should happen, at the pressure of their religion.

    If you are both JW's how can your children have an educated decision? Will you allow them to explore other religions? To be true to their beliefs, you would strongly discourage this!! I'm not questioning your family's intent in all this, but my experience says "they" will tell you what you want to hear to get you in. After that, you're out of choices.

    Again, good for you for getting educated, religion is a personal choice, but I just wanted to throw in my .02 cents having been there, doing that!

    SK

  • momof5
    momof5

    Rebellious,

    I haven't read all of your posts so I hope I am not repeating anything but as my name says, I have 5 kids and I don't have alot of time! I too am trying desperately trying to find the truth about the wts too. I have been a "Fence Sitter" for about 12 years now and I am also scared of doing the wrong thing. Not only by joining a mixed up cult but by not joining and finding out it was really the truth and I rejected it.

    The Kingdom Hall I go to also has VERY nice people. They have never told me how to raise my kids. I only take 3 of them with me and they do not seam to have a problem with that. The other two just can not sit still. One elder actually gave me advice NOT to spank my kids very much. I was not raised in the "truth" and I was not there as a child and I am still interested in finding the truth so I am sure my kids will do what they think is right when the time comes too.

    About the trinity, there are plenty of people that are not JWs that do not believe in it. There are a few scriptures that make it seam that Jesus is God but there are thousands that show that he is not. Same with the holy spirit. That too is what makes my search difficult. I CAN NOT believe in the trinity and that leaves most churchs out.

    You are a step ahead of me though.....you do have faith that there is a God. My faith is severly lacking. Right now I am just trying to keep a balanced amount of information coming in, for and against the organization.

    Let me know where your search leads you. My husband is an atheist, you are very lucky to be in a relationship with a person that cares about doing what the Bible teaches! I can't even talk about it with my husband....he just doesn't care. momof5

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