It's been a long 9 years Lloyd Evans / John Cedars

by Newly Enlightened 9777 Replies latest watchtower scandals

  • vienne


    Good idea. Most videos by former adherents have meaningless content. Some present themselves as academics. One older couple does that, videoing themselves in front of bookcases. Having many books does not mean you read them, and disorganized content shows that you did not or that your comprehension is poor. That you present something from a book, even reading paragraphs, does not mean that you're purveying fact.

    Some videos are doctrinal. Fine. The presenter has a point of view. I have family who are Witnesses. I asked some of them to view a few of those, choosing those by clergy instead of ex-Witnesses. Their responses were illuminating. The "questions Witnesses can't answer" type of video drew ready and pointed comments. Those videos were not persuasive. They do not appear to have been meant for Witnesses, but to keep their sheep in the pen.

    There are a few videos that pretend to present Witness history. Almost without exception, they do not work. They present false pictures of Witness culture. Dr. Chryssides new book should set the pattern. Or - yes he's my grand uncle - Dr. Schulz's books.

    We need to stop the nonsense. What the Watchtower said 100 or so years ago persuades no one, though it may make some feel like it was good to leave. Many of those making videos were disfellowshipped for cause. They found "the truth about the truth" seeing it as justification for their bad conduct. This should stop. Finding something in the Golden Age and sensationalizing it is stupid. When the GA says, "according to the press" that's what it meant. The public press was full of sensational, often contrived reports. Relating what some newspaper said did not, and does not establish doctrine.

    If you look you can find a report in GA about radio signals from Mars. Okay. Fine. But that article relayed what the press reported. Nothing more. Stop making scandal where it does not exist.

    Simon, if you follow through with this make it academically sound. We need truthful material, not sensationalized, without obsessing on every detail from recent Watchtower letters, presenting them as some deep hidden secret.

    Let's stop following the youtubers who sensationalize the commonplace. Let's stick to the facts; stop making myth. Interview outsider scholars, putting tough questions to them. Doubt everything. Verify.

    We'll always have fruitcakes on youtube. We need to stop being gullible. The enemy of your enemy is NOT your friend.

  • TonusOH

    I must say, I misjudged Andrew Gold. He has gone full scorched earth on Evans as a result of being used as a propaganda tool. Taking Gold for granted may turn out to be his biggest mistake, in the end.

  • LouGoode

    Vienne, making a video infront of a bookcase is not ‘presenting yourself as an academic’.

    I made videos and I have never been disfellowshipped. I have a law degree and a post graduate degree in education. Do I fit your narrow permitted criteria for making ex Jw videos? I’ve never made one infront of a bookcase if that helps.

  • BottanicPepper

    Vienne, are you referring to the Aspinalls?

    Oh, I hope not. I love watching their videos. They've helped me get to grip with some doctrinal things over the years. They aren't into scandals, or gossipy stuff, they discuss where the doctrines are wrong. WT is the main focus, but they also cover other cults. This is the "about" bit on their YouTube channel:

    Specializing in discernment issues related to Christianity and the cults, especially The Watchtower (Jehovah's Witnesses). Also education, literacy & literary criticism, propaganda and media, and the historical, economic and social aspects of religion.

    The books and bookcases isn't to appear academic, it's because they're well read, intelligent people. If you look at their latest videos you'll see their home is covered in piles of books etc. It's a way of life to them, not a gimmick.

  • BottanicPepper

    Also, it may seem like I'm picking on you, Vienne, but I really hope not, because I agree with a lot of what you say. But I'm not certain this is correct:

    We need to stop the nonsense. What the Watchtower said 100 or so years ago persuades no one, though it may make some feel like it was good to leave.

    It was a coffin nail for me. Not the only one, by any means, but it had a large impact. When I discovered some of the rubbish Rutherford was writing in his multiple books it made it even clearer there was no God backing this "strange" man, or his organisation.

    Maybe it's not relevant to the younger generation because the way CA is covered should be enough to send anyone out of this cult.

    But for anyone born in the 70's 80's, etc it's a crucial part. I am/was a 3rd gen born in. I grew up in the 70's and 80's come from the generation that knew nothing of the Shephard the Flock book. And when whispers went around and I asked, I was told it didn't even exist. There was no such secret handbook for elders. I was told 75' was a sifting work, just like 25' was. 1914 was when Russel announced the "gentile times have ended, the kings have had their day" and how "right" he was. It had to be the truth. Russell got it right, the preaching is expanding, Crisis of Conscience was written by the disgruntled nephew of Franz when he realised he wasn't going to become the next president. (This was the actual excuse I was given when Ray released his book. He was angry because he wouldn't be made president and he thought he should be next because Franz was his uncle.) I believed it for years, because I didn't know any better, and had no reason to doubt what I was told.

    It's only of recent years that they've admitted Russel thought they'd be raptured to heaven in 1914. Of course, they still don't tell it like it really was, but at least they admit he thought they'd go to heaven. When I was growing up in the 70's, 80's, we knew nothing of what really happened. We were taught that Russell predicted the coming of Jesus in 1914 and that he saw the World War as being the proof of Satn being expelled from the the heavens. Nothing was ever said about them thinking they'd go to heaven. He'd predicted it was the beginning of the end and he was right. And we had no way of checking even if we did doubt. Information is controlled, and when you live in a sleepy town in the heart of England there was no need to doubt. The internet was still a long way off. I didn't touch a computer until I was in secondary school and learnt BBC Basic. lol.

    People born before 2000 need to see these things. Not so much the millenials and onwards. It's an information era and access to things we just didn't even know existed is a finger tip away.

    I'd heard of Russel's pyramid idea from someone I met on the ministry. When I asked about it, it was shrugged off as being twisted lies from apostates and that wasn't what Russell had been doing. I was told to forget it. I did. When you're born and raised in a bubble, you believe what you're told. Not because we're guliable, but because we trust the source. It was all I knew and I had no reason to doubt what everyone around me knew to be true. All I grew up understanding, was that I wasn't good enough for the true religion, and that God had rejected me years ago. The problem had to be me, because this was the one true religion that never got anything wrong and was blessed by God.

    When the internet exploded with information I went on a search through the library of my parents older books. Boxed up in the back of the wardrobes. They had books right back to the thirties I'd never seen before and they'd forgotten all about. I even found the picture of the levels of Hell in Budism that used to torment me as a child. I was terrified of that picture, but like a moth to a flame it was all I could look at when we studied that book. It gave me nightmares for months. lol

    And I found a fold out diagram of the three pyramids of Gezza and his strange calculations. I can't tell you the relief that gave me. lol

    So, my point, after much rambling, is that these videos etc that expose what was taught 100 years ago are invaluable for the older generations.

    I think it's Larchwood on Twitter who finds some real gems in the older books and puts them up. Some of them are just great to get people thinking without even realising what you're doing.

    I did it the other week with a staunch witness friend. I laughingly told her how we used to teach that by the end of the thousand years, all the women would become men. When she read it for herself I could see the confusion even whilst we laughed it off.

    So, yeah, rambling again. Sorry.

    Just wanted to add my two pence worth to say that I think these videos have a lot of value to offer to older witnesses and some younger ones who are convinced in the GB being right all the time.

    Cause at the end of the day, if "we're teaching the truth now, what was it we were teaching back then?" Certainly not the truth. So did God give us false information? Or is it the WT is just a load of old phoneys out for the money?

  • BottanicPepper

    Me again. Sorry. But I forgot to add that I think it's important to keep exposing what is in the Elder's letter each month. Even if it's boring day to day running. Every so often, letter come through that show they aren't all that different from the churches around them. The Obligatory Donations (i.e. the collection plates) one recently was excellent. Working out how much each individual must donate each month and letting the congregation know in a way that doesn't show the hypocrisy must have been a feat for all those secretaries out there.

    "Brothers, we don't send around collection plates, and we've never begged for money. But well, here we are again, talking about money. The GB have decided that you'd all just love to donate at least £8.50 every month, and no less. If you can donate more, go you, your place at the top of the table will be more secure. But if you can't donate £8.50, may we just remind you of the widow who put in everything she had. So, put that £8.50 in at the start of the month and don't wait till the end to see if you have anything left after paying all your bills. And kids, ice-cream rots your teeth anyway. See how lovingly the Governing Body look after us. They even have you young ones at heart. And family heads, maybe we can make it a point of our family worship this week. Explain why we have to give our all to God's only true organisation. Maybe we can think about how we knew we'd suffer for Jehovah. So going hungry is to be expected. And if you aren't suffering, and you're living quite comfortably, then you're not spiritual enough. You aren't doing enough if you aren't in constant persecution. Now, let's sing song number 1002, Glory, glory, Governing Body, Oh, how we love thee. Taken from Saint Tony's epistle chapter 59 v 108. And then we'll ask Brother Boringly Long Prayers to return our thanks."

  • Diogenesister
    Vienne We need to stop the nonsense. What the Watchtower said 100 or so years ago persuades no one, though it may make some feel like it was good to leave.
    BottanicPepper It was a coffin nail for me. Not the only one, by any means, but it had a large impact. When I discovered some of the rubbish Rutherford was writing in his multiple books it made it even clearer there was no God backing this "strange" man, or his organisation.

    Absolutely. Vienne doesn't understand, having never been a witness. Once you realise the completely crazy, inappropriate behaviour the leader of the faith displayed, at the time their own doctrine claims Jesus choose them as the one true faith, the whole thing collapses. I think whatever happens during the nascent period of the religion is very relevent. It's the very foundations of the faith....after all a house built on sand and all that!!

    NB The reason the Aspinall's have a lot of books on their bookshelves is because they are Bookshellers!! That is their job 🙄

    Vienne You seem to find anyone who is fairly knowledgeable, both of Biblical doctrine and Watchtower history (having lived it) somehow a threat. Why is that? I don't understand. It doesn't take anything away from the scholarly work of your uncle, Vienne.

    NB BottanicPepper 'Vienne' is the young daughter of the original Vienne, who tragically passed away from cancer.


    I’ve made a video promoting other channels, it’s a start, hopefully I can add to it 👍

  • stan livedeath
    stan livedeath

    when i think my dear old jw dad was donating £100 per month ! As well as a one off £5000 to the kingdom hall fund ( which was subsequently sold!). Needless to say as soon as i got power of attorney those payments were stopped. By then he was in a care home in a different congregation area...but i know an elder from his former congregation used to visit him. He would know better than come to me for the money.

  • silentlamb_silent_no_more
    What we need to do is promote other voices, and that people shouldn't wallow in being an exJW and obsessing about the WTS for the rest of their lives, but instead recover and move on.

    Absolutely agree with you Simon. No point staying stuck in the past. Moving on to the next chapter and building a life away from the old JW life is healing. It does get better after Watchtower and I think having those positive voices, not dismissing the lives we had in Watchtower of course, but moving on from that abusive organisation, is healing. Staying stuck and watching someone go on about what Watchtower is up to now, trying to find fault in their activities such as the AntMo drinking debacle, takes away from the real issues with Watchtower - the policies that harm people such as the CSA Two Witness Rule Policy and not going to the police, the shunning policy which does not just harm ex members lets be clear, it does harm some very good people who are JW's themselves right now, but are doing what they are told is right and of course the blood policy that harms pregnant women and children.

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