a friend in need

by OldSoul 604 Replies latest members private

  • OldSoul
    OldSoul
    stevenyc: The ?faithful and discrete slave? are the 144000, not the Governing Body.

    You have the gist of it. Minor technicality is that they teach the Faithful and Discreet Slave? (All Rights Reserved, Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Inc.) is the remnant of anointed on the earth. But the FDS is merely the pen name of the Governing Body. If 85% of the Faithful and Discreet Slave feels one way on an issue and 2/3 of the Governing Body feels differently, it is the Governing Body that will print in the Watchtower that the spirit directed them to do such-and-such. Your understanding of who the FDS really is, is correct. It is, to all intents and purposes, the Governing Body.

    Perhaps shadow can answer more fully.

    Curiously,
    OldSoul

  • RebelliousSpirit
    RebelliousSpirit
    Annie: I actually sat here and rolled my eyes when I read that about the PM. Secret maneuverings? Making sure they get their stories straight? More Theocratic Warfare afoot?

    Annie, I don't think so. Just my personal opinion, mind you, but I think shadow is nothing like afin. Shadow is sincere and considerate, tries to establish his faith on the Bible, speaks from the Bible as his authority and the source for his viewpoints, and is what he claims to be - an "unconventional" elder. I would be surprised if the PM wasn't a wrist-slapping and a virtual trip to the corner.

    I believe OS is right. In my discussions with shadow I have found him to be reasonable, sincere, and helpful. Like OS, I believe shadow to be as he claims, an unconventional elder - one that is struggling with his own "grey areas", I might add.

    AFIN, on the otherhand, is a pot-stirrer. And I imagine she/he/it would like to stir shadow's pot as well - though perhaps she/he/it will be more tactful about it with one such as shadow. Like I've told shadow - I'm here seeking the truth, I am not here looking for a fight. However, I won't back down from one brought to me either. C'est tout!

  • shadow
    shadow

    steve,

    Why would Jehovah require an earthly corporation to demand his bidding without question?

    Why did Jesus remove the earthly arraignment of law and rules, if we now have to apply laws and rules at the consequence of being destroyed at Armageddon for not following the sinners of the Governing Body?

    Maybe shadow could help me here?

    FWIW, I would say it is more accurate that Jehovah tolerates and uses it. If anyone saw all the flaws in JW's and thought it should be scrapped and start again from scratch, it would just grow into something else with its own flaws. Just like when the kings of Israel were overturned, to be replaced by a system that led to the synagogues and Pharisees, who were replaced by Christianity that led to Christendom, to what I believe God is now using, namely some people carved out of other groups and gathered together but with the inevitable flaws inherent in human systems.

  • shadow
    shadow

    I want to make sure I understand your question. Let me rephrase it and see if this is what you mean: Since Jesus obviously did not think of the Pharisees as Faithful or Discreet and he overturned that earthly arrangement, and since the modern day organization has so much in common with the Pharisees, would Jesus think that this organization is Faithful or Discreet, or would he overturn it as it stands right now?

    Have I got the correct understanding of your question? If so, it is a very thought provoking question. I think you should let Shadow answer it for you.

    The best arrangement is where no human is in authority over another human. I believe Jesus will do a lot of reforming if this organization is retained post-Armageddon. Probably handing out a lot of pink slips to superfine apostles. On the other hand, there are many good brothers around too that don't lord it over the flock that I could see Jesus as continuing to use.

  • stevenyc
    stevenyc

    os,

    You have the gist of it. Minor technicality is that they teach the Faithful and Discreet Slave? ( All Rights Reserved, Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Inc.) is the remnant of anointed on the earth.

    As yes, it?s all coming back to me now, ?The Remnant? ? ( All Rights Reserved, Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Inc.) .

    Shadow,

    Thank you for your response,

    If I may ask a couple more questions for clarity:

    Why do the FDS / ?food at the proper time? people, have to be part of the remnant of the 144000?

    And, if Jehovah tolerates this organization made up from people who hope they are part of the 144000, why would Jehovah require we follow this organization's laws and rules without question, at the consequence of being destroyed at Armageddon for not following the sinners of the Governing Body?

    Thank you.

    Steve.

  • Sunspot
    Sunspot

    Ooooops! I'm afraid that what I said about the PM business, was misunderstood or I worded it badly!

    My thought was that (no reflection on shadow) afin was PMing him to remind him that he shouldn't be "helping" all the "unworthies" here and remain aloof and not REALLY answering any questions. Unity and all that stuff!

    Let's face it: with the in-depth and thoughtful replies that shadow has given, it makes afin look even MORE foolish than before!

    Sorry for the misunderstanding!

    Annie

  • RebelliousSpirit
    RebelliousSpirit
    My thought was that (no reflection on shadow) afin was PMing him to remind him that he shouldn't be "helping" all the "unworthies" here and remain aloof and not REALLY answering any questions. Unity and all that stuff!

    Let's face it: with the in-depth and thoughtful replies that shadow has given, it makes afin look even MORE foolish than before!

    I totally agree, Annie.

  • shadow
    shadow
    Why do the FDS / ?food at the proper time? people, have to be part of the remnant of the 144000?

    Are you looking for the official version? or comments on the official version?

    And, if Jehovah tolerates this organization made up from people who hope they are part of the 144000, why would Jehovah require we follow this organization's laws and rules without question, at the consequence of being destroyed at Armageddon for not following the sinners of the Governing Body?

    I don't believe Jehovah has ever said that.

    May I ask the reason for your interest?

  • OldSoul
    OldSoul
    shadow: incidentally, would you admit the possibility of error on your part as well?

    In this statement, I would not ever be willing to admit error: "Jehovah, the God of the Bible, would never provide holy spirit to actively support an arrangement that is hypocritical or Pharisaical."

    While Jehovah did not immediately correct or punish every authority figure that stopped doing his will, he immediately removed his spirit from it. I find no scriptural exception to that rule. His spirit cannot support hypocrisy. His spirit did not support the Pharisees or those from that sect who later tried to subvert the souls of early Christians.

    Paul said that he wished such men would even get themselves emasculated. (Galatians 5:1-12) He said that such men did not recognize that we were called for freedom and that we should never "let [ourselves] be confined again in a yoke of slavery" to laws and traditions of men.

    {edited to add} His spirit cannot continue to support anyone who does not fully attempt do his will, witness Moses in Kadesh. Jehovah said, "YOU must speak to the crag before their eyes that it may indeed give its water." Moses did not do just so. He "struck the crag with his rod twice." As consequence, Moses was not used to bring the Israelites into the Land of Promise. Jehovah let the Israelites get water to keep his promise to Abraham.

    shadow: How about a pragmatic look at this situation? You boldly speak out against what you see as error (incidentally, would you admit the possibility of error on your part as well?) and injustice. You are invited to a JC & df'd. At this point 99.9% of JW's (probably including at least some of your family) will no longer listen to you or have anything to do with you. Most other people you meet will not care a bit about what you have to say about JW's. Without a meeting schedule, your Bible study begins to fall by the wayside or perhaps you seek out another religion that will have its own version of corrupt human authority and likely fail on many points of essential criteria for God's approval such as Isa 2:4. Would you say that anyone's situation has improved enough to justify your actions? If, as a result of your actions, the faith in God of your wife and children are destroyed, would it be worth that price? Some of this reasoning could no doubt be spouted by individuals of other religions which takes us back to the necessity of endeavoring to perceive what the essential criteria are from God's viewpoint.

    I have thought down this road for the last 15 years. That is what has kept me in, the inability to wake anyone else up. "Without a meeting schedule, [my] Bible study" would be much more productive and would result in my being more in harmony with the leadings of holy spirit, because I would not have to waste mental energy correcting the wrong thinking presented in the material being considered. Most Witnesses don't do Bible study. Most don't even do WT Publication Study. They do WT Publication Reading with the aid of a few partially quoted verses from the Bible. Or they may hastily look up a verse or two at the meeting.

    I'm sure you know that is a problem addressed by every CO, but the response has been to dumb down the literature even more. This makes me think it is not seen as a "problem" at higher levels. Bible reading is stressed, while Bible study should always be along with the publications provided by the Faithful and Discreet Slave (see paragraph 11 in this past week's study article) to keep anyone from the sin of "harbor[ing] private ideas."

    "Would you say that anyone's situation has improved enough to justify your actions?" If I were DF'd? Yes. Mine. Each person has one relationship with God to think of - first and foremost. No one else's relationship is totally dependent upon me. In my opinion, that is not selfishness and I think it is unkind of you to paint it as selfishness. Unless that is part of how you cope, in which case, I don't consider it unkindness but I would consider it at least a little self-deluding. Understandably self-deluding, though.

    I have considered fading. If I fade away, no one would be restricted from talking to me and I would have access to elders, as a "weak one," to ask questions of them. As a weak Christian, I would not be held to as rigid a standard as a mature Christian. If I am inactive and not attending meetings I will automatically be viewed as weak without ever saying a word to that effect. They would form their own conclusions and then anything questioning that I say would just reinforce that preconception.

    shadow: the faith in God of your wife and children are destroyed

    If her faith was that weak to begin with, did I do what a spiritual head should do? Did I really encourage her and help her place her confidence and assurance on solid ground? If not, could my leaving possibly be destructive to something that was never really present to begin with? I think we have much in common, but I am getting the feeling that you would recommend I play by the rules inside a system you admit is corrupt (diseased, plague-ridden) while every bone in my body daily screams, "Quit touching the unclean thing!"

    Shadow, obviously you do not mind "harbor[ing] private ideas" that conflict with Governing Body doctrine. I respect you very much for your willingness to help me cope with what you know is a very difficult situation. So I would like your personal opinion.

    Do you think John 13:34, 35 is fulfilled by an organization, or by individuals?
    Do you believe that "the righteous ones" mentioned in Proverbs 4:18 refers to an organization or individuals?
    What about "the righteous one" of Psalm 97:11?
    Does Psalm 119:105 apply to the feet (plural) of an organization, or to a roadway provided by an organization?
    Who is "the light of the world" in Matthew 5:14, an organization or individuals?
    Applying the Genesis 2:7 rule to Matthew 5:14, do I have light or am I light?

    I feel I am currently under a measuring basket and have felt that way for a very long time. I feel cramped for room. If you don't, I am eager to know how you cope. Is it by the mental tricks you recommend here? Is there more to it than that? Do you believe this is God's organization for the salvation of mankind, that they are truly faithful stewards of sacred secrets? (1 Corinthians 3:2)

    Respectfully,
    OldSoul

  • stevenyc
    stevenyc

    Shadow,

    Thank you for your response.

    And, if Jehovah tolerates this organization made up from people who hope they are part of the 144000, why would Jehovah require we follow this organization's laws and rules without question, at the consequence of being destroyed at Armageddon for not following the sinners of the Governing Body?

    I don't believe Jehovah has ever said that.

    I don?t believe Jehovah has said it either, however, as a review through these AFIN 400 odd posts with show you that it is what happens. If a brother has some issue with certain teachings of the governing body then there are steps taken.

    The brother is recommended to talk to an elder

    Then either a stronger elder or perhaps two elders

    Then maybe a letter to Brooklyn

    If the brother still isn?t in agreement he will be asked to wait on Jehovah for enlightenment

    However, if the teaching is of profound consequence to the brother (maybe the blood issue, authority of the governing body) that it affects his conscience because he sees no biblical justification, he will end up with three choices; 1) wait, 2) DA himself, or 3) being DF?d. Admittedly he may also slip away, which is pretty close to DA?ing himself.

    Once this position of disassociation or disfellowshipment, he is seen as an apostate and spiritually dead. He will die at Armageddon.

    The reason I am asking these question is that it is of personal interest to me. I am 3 rd generation JW who as slipped away partly because of these reasons. My farther, 30yr elder, and I did many conversations and in the end I was given the three options above.

    Are you looking for the official version? or comments on the official version?

    Both would be of interest to me. This is a fundamental teaching, which, if the system continues for another 30 years, will need to be reviewed.

    My asking these questions is to get an understanding from someone with bias, but without typical rhetoric. This is why I appreciate or participation.

    Steve.

    PS I having formating difficulies, I don't mean to shout.

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