a friend in need

by OldSoul 604 Replies latest members private

OldSoul

bebu: BTW OS, I enjoy your posts.

Thanks ... I appreciate all of you sharing your thoughts on things.
Respectfully,
OldSoul
stevenyc

OldSoul
Some questions cannot be answered scripturally. The bible is a very old book, written by dead people in a dead language, copied down centuries by more dead people and more dead languages, transcribed into modern English, which we now sit here and debate in.
Everything you know to be true in the bible is interpretation. Either your own, or probably the Governing Bodies. Look at the debate over John 1:1 and what the original writers meant regarding the trinity or not.
If you question are not answered, this shouldn?t be surprising. If you require the answers from governing body then you?ll have to be patient and wait for the ?Newer World Translation of the Holy Scriptures? ? in 2007. IMHO.
Steve.
OldSoul

stevenyc,
I fully appreciate your point. Particularly, my thread with a friend in need is for lurkers who have never seen how tough it is for Jehovah's Witnesses to prove from the Bible why they listen to anything the Faithful and Discreet Slave? (All Rights Reserved, Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Inc.) says.

Shadow is an elder and cannot establish a foundation for that teaching other than "the Bible allows for it," although even his position of service as an elder is through that organizational structure. It is an EXTREMELY important teaching because of how the Governing Body abuses it (w01 8/1 p. 14):

"8 First, since 'oneness' is to be observed, a mature Christian must be in unity and full harmony with fellow believers as far as faith and knowledge are concerned. He does not advocate or insist on personal opinions or harbor private ideas when it comes to Bible understanding. Rather, he has complete confidence in the truth as it is revealed by Jehovah God through his Son, Jesus Christ, and 'the faithful and discreet slave.' By regularly taking in the spiritual food provided 'at the proper time'?through Christian publications, meetings, assemblies, and conventions?we can be sure that we maintain 'oneness' with fellow Christians in faith and knowledge.?Matthew 24:45."

A mature Christian does "not advocate or insist on personal opinions or harbor private ideas?" Why? The answer is both simple and totally enforced: Because the Faithful and Discreet Slave said so, case closed. Such utter lunacy must be challenged for basis, just as Paul challenged Peter and Jesus challenged the Pharisees. Of course, neither of them were excommunicated for doing so. But I would be disfellowshipped and I would lose contact with my family as a result.
For anyone interested: For the past 15 years, I have been looking for proof from the Bible of foundation for the doctrines expressed in the second post of this thread, way back on page 1. These doctrines are very potent and hold sway to some degree or other over all other teachings of Jehovah's Witnesses. These doctrines form the foundation for the majority of Witnesses dismissing the scandals such as rampant child molestation and the 10-year-long UN NGO affiliation as minor issues not requiring serious probing investigation and disclosure.
In short (yeah, right - too late for that, OldSoul): These four doctrines form the box inside which all other Jehovah's Witnesses ideas must fit. These are the walls. There is no foundation. Without the walls, the building crumbles. JW Lurker, ask yourself honestly: Can you support the walls?

Respectfully,
OldSoul
RebelliousSpirit

Yours would be the first I've ever heard of someone possibly being df'ed for asking questions. There is a lot more to your past than you reveal here. Not that I want to know it but it could have a bearing on your past treatment by elders.

Here I am back again - appalled as usual. I'm not even a witness, AFIN, and I've seen what happens to witnesses who ask questions. Where have you been? Asking questions means you might not accept every word from the FDS, which means you might be spiritually weak, which leads to questions being asked of you, and if you don't give the ~~answers they want to hear~~ "right" answers - you effectively are forced into a position where you are considered to have "disassociated yourself". DF, DA - what's the difference? Nothing, when it comes right down to it. So who in their right mind would want to verbalize their questions to the WTS knowing the potential ramifications? And I think that sucks.
Jehovah God himself tells us to keep seeking answers:
(Matthew 7:7) . . ."Keep on asking, and it will be given YOU; keep on seeking, and YOU will find; keep on knocking, and it will be opened to YOU. . .
(Proverbs 2:3-6) 3
if, moreover, you call out for understanding itself and you give forth your voice for discernment itself, 4 if you keep seeking for it as for silver, and as for hid treasures you keep searching for it, 5 in that case you will understand the fear of Jehovah, and you will find the very knowledge of God. 6 For Jehovah himself gives wisdom; out of his mouth there are knowledge and discernment. . .
gnat ... but the elders are your husbands spititual head ... and if you honor him, you honor them.
I beg your pardon (for jgnat and myself!)?? I honor and respect my husband 110%. However, I am not required to "honor" the elders because of a title they bear - nor is he for that matter. Jesus Christ is my husband's spiritual head, as well as my own. The elders can earn my respect - however, I will not hold them in any place of honor. Christians give glory and honor to God as the universal sovereign - not man. Remember?
RebelliousSpirit

os ... your family is REALLY going to miss you!!! Loveable little soul that you are!!!
AFIN : that's a sweet blackmail somehow ... you you you ... hum (JW in action)

FBF - so right! That's right up there with, "Don't you love Jehovah?", "You couldn't possibly walk away after all you've learned, could you?", "Don't you want your family to be together in paradise?", "What about your children and their future?", and countless other coined phrases used to induce guilt.
Frankly I think that is the sh!ttiest thing AFIN has said thus far. Which only demonstrates that when they're losing the war, their only retaliation is "the big guilt guns", aka you have free will but you really do not because we will blackmail your @ss until you can't stand yourself anymore.
Last I knew, Jehovah made it pretty clear that people are to serve him of their own free will that he might make a reply to the one who taunts him (Satan). IMHO, Satan is having a field day with the ~~emotional blackmail~~ "shunning" policy of the JWs. I guess free will comes with a price, eh?
Speaking from personal experience ... my husband would not be reinstated right now if his parents had shunned him. And that is the bottom line. People who return to the org because they are shunned are not returning for the right reasons. Doesn't anyone get that?? Do the JWs think that Jehovah wants people serving him because they feel they have no other option? Do they honestly think that makes Him happy? Give me a break!
RebelliousSpirit

I read this in the 9/15 89 WT and it made me nauseous:
Jehovah would be displeased if we failed to be obedient and submissive to Christian overseers. This would also prove burdensome to them and would harm us spiritually. If we were uncooperative, the elders might care for their duties with sighing, perhaps in a spirit of discouragement that could result in a loss of joy in our Christian activities. But our obedience and submissiveness promote godly conduct and strengthen our faith.
Our being obedient and submissive to congregation elders does not mean that we are men pleasers. That would be unscriptural, for first-century Christian slaves were told to obey their masters, "not with acts of eye-service, as men pleasers, but with sincerity of heart, with fear of Jehovah." (Colossians 3:22; Ephesians 6:5, 6)
Obedient? Submissive?? Christian slaves???
Anyone else see a creepy pattern forming?
AlmostAtheist

RS: The elders can earn my respect - however, I will not hold them in any place of honor.

Rebel, you'd've made a lousy JW.
(That's a compliment of the highest order, BTW!)
Dave
OldSoul

I think it is important to point out that shadow has made a very good representation of what the Witnesses should behave like if the Organization wishes to attract reasonable and intelligent adherents. Also, shadow has stated that he was baptized under the old questions (pre-1985) so that relieves him of some of the contractual restraints that could stifle the freeness of speech of some brothers.
Shadow, I truly appreciate your efforts. Your manner speaks well of you.
Respectfully,
OldSoul
shadow

OS,
shadow: Were the Israelites God's people in spite of the failings and corruption of many of their leaders?
Yes. But Hebrews 5 shows clearly that in Paul's estimation we have a new arrangement completely absent such human leaders in the Israelitic sense.
I would have to disagree. 1 Tim 3, Titus 1, 1 Cor 5, James 5, 1 Pet 5 all speak of an authority structure that was established in the 1st century. Many of those holding positions of authority abused it even then, following the virtually universal pattern of human authority (Ecc 8:9).
shadow: I don't believe that there is any definitive scriptural evidence to support the FDS doctrine of JW's. However I believe it is permissible for humans to create an authority structure that will be approved and used by Jehovah.
It is not this belief that I am looking for proof of. I am looking for proof that humans can create an authority structure that undermines Jehovah's authority that will be approved and used by Jehovah. Mind you, the Kingships over Israel and Judah was an arrangement contrary to Jehovah's will that he did not approve.
True that Jehovah did not institute the kingship arrangement in Israel, it was a human invention. But this just proves the point all the more. Once the humans got this authority structure that was doomed to corruption established, Jehovah did use it. Samuel was sent to select David and David was said to sit on Jehovah's throne. Solomon was also used (1 Chron 22:9). etc. etc. etc.
shadow: So I just don?t see much evidence to support the contention that there was a 1st century governing body administering the congregations. Some such arrangement may be appropriate now (although somewhat Pharisaical and proud as portrayed in the literature, IMHO) in view of the fact that we don?t have the benefit of inspiration or direct communication with Jesus or angels, but I don?t really see that is the way it was in the 1st century.
I agree. I feel somewhat disappointed that you did not answer my question regarding what would happen to me if I behaved like Jesus (Matthew 23) or Paul (Acts; Galatians). If I am excommunicated for following in the footsteps of Christ, would that also have Jehovah's blessing and approval? Can every organization rightly claim Godly approval just because he does not wipe them out with a plague or work against their conditioning/recruitment efforts? I cannot believe so without proof.
Depending on the issue and your local BOE, you'd be df'd. I suppose I would be too. Certainly people have been wrongly expelled in the past and continue to be. Remember the healed man that was expelled from the synagogue because he refused to cave in to the Pharisees? How about the ones written to by John (3 John 9-11)? So if you really are following Christ in some particular circumstance and df'd for it, then I have to believe that you are the faithful one and those that df you are unfaithful. However many wrongfully df'd not only blame the humans, they also take it out on Jehovah and then do become unfaithful (Luke 17:1).
No, not every organization claiming God's approval can justify that claim. That's where a person would have to come to know God's criteria and compare that to the individual or entity in question. If, for example, you used Isa 2:4 as a criteria you would be left with a pretty short list.
I appreciate the patient consideration you have show thus far, it is a sharp contrast with what other posters provide although I doubt that it is only because you are an elder. As you said, you are an unconventional elder. But your posts have raised a question regarding your personal choices: I would also like to know whether you teach people - in the field ministry or from the platform - things that you do not believe to be true. If so, please provide Scriptural precedent for that choice and explain how you justify that. I would have to know this in order to ever choose to continue as one of Jehovah's Witnesses while not believing.
As you know, a speaker can still use considerable latitude in developing their material, so I do not feel that I have made any compromises on any key issues. Of course, the definition of what are key issues is relatively subjective. On question and answer parts that I may handle, I just allow someone in the the audience to comment without any elaboration from me. The field ministry can be tough, but I don't have any studies and so far have been fortunate to not have any confrontations in the field on certain questionable doctrines such as the ones we are discussing.
I think you have said a lot already about how many elders do not agree with what they are taught, I would like to know how they justify it. I thoroughly appreciate your candor thus far. I'm pretty sure most of the posters here appreciate that and many here know exactly how difficult it is.
I have no idea how many elders have serious disagreements with what we are taught. I basically justify it by the reasoning I have presented here.
RebelliousSpirit

Rebel, you'd've made a lousy JW.
(That's a compliment of the highest order, BTW!)
Dave

Funny you say that Dave. I've been trying to tell everyone that from day one, but they keep trying to convince me that I'm wrong. My in-laws, my conductor, etc. (My husband already knows I'd make a lousy JW. )
Me: "I'd make a bad JW, you know".
Them: "You would not! Why do you say that?"
Me: "Well for starters you know I don't put up with anyone's cr@p".
Them: "Well we wouldn't expect you to"
Me: "Riiiiiiiiiiiiiight. Who is this really?"
I was in Hot Topic the other day (indication #2, by the way) and I bought my husband a Happy Bunny postcard that says, "I'm bad and you love it"
He loved it.

a friend in need

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