by RebelliousSpirit 278 Replies latest members private
If I were God, I'd say something like, "My child, you don't need forgiveness. I want you to search for me. You're 'messed up' because you have been given very different answers to the same questions by people that sincerely believe they are serving me correctly. I love you, and I accept you as you are. I've given you a mind, use it. Serve me in the way that you determine is right."
Thanks Dave, that helps a lot. ::hugs::
Why do things seem to be sooo difficult and convaluted? I've been following this entire thread with keen interest. I've investigated many Christian churches, and early on elimated the JW's for numerous reasons.... mainly, they are so far from what Jesus' life was about. In following His example of keeping things simple, this scripture should give you a reliable yardstick to judge:
MATTHEW 11:
28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light
For me, the JWs are one of the most burdensome, heavily laden, guilt ridden religions around - there is no "rest" with a mentality to "do more". Christ was about LOVE ... he even said THAT was above all of the laws (last part of Matther 22).
Take care.... life is a journey of discovery ... don't sell yourself short with counterfeit messages.
Very cool, AlmostAthiest comforts a Christian! It must be all that practice, AA, that you get being married to FreedomFrog. Being in a "mixed marriage" myself, I am interested in hearing how couples make a success of it. Also, I try and be a model of flexibility and understanding. I find that many people are curious how we do it. A good sense of humor seems to be essential. The couple who live beside us is Greek Orthodox/Athiest. They are both very ethical, generous, and honorable. He (the athiest) and Me (the Christian) put up the Christmas lights this year.
The people who seem to have the most trouble reconciling our relationship are the ones who take the "do not even eat with such a one." scripture too literally. They act as if I am living with the devil himself. Give me a break. My husband is a warm, slightly confused, and dedicated husband. I think the entire world would rotate much smoother if we stopped hanging all these monstrous labels around peoples' necks.
I figure, that scripture (do not even eat with such a one) is meant for a select few individuals that seem to make a career of splitting up communities with their spite-filled remarks. Raging with unspent bitterness, furious that those "in charge" did not put them in charge, they spread their poison to anybody who is in no power to make positive change. Perhaps you have met people that, I know I have.
May I suggest that, whenever you feel like you have no response to the arguments, that you say, "That's a good-sounding argument. But I wish to look at that more carefully and make sure that this is really the best answer." And hold your ground on that. This will let them know that:
1) you understand their argument, and recognize any merits it has in its present form;
2) you think the issue too important, though, to rush into a decision based on their argument alone;
3) you are intent on making sure of all things, like the Bereans;
4) you might be finding an objection/better argument! So, you reserve the right to disagree later.
It buys you some time.
There is a book you can download online, called "Captives of a Concept", and it deals precisely with the issue of the WT's claim to be the Faithful and Discreet Slave... and how this is disproved using their own early writings. And how a new study, like yourself, can be more ready to handle this crucial doctrine, upon which the foundations of this religion rest. I mention this to you now, even though I think you need to take a breather from contact with the JWs and take care of yourself. For later, here is the URL:
http://www.captivesofaconcept.com/
I hope you find some REAL help from talking with your priest. If he practices whatever the Bible says about love, you have a good chance of being helped emotionally.
bebu
:Then tell me ... what does it mean that Jesus said he'd appoint the f&ds over all of His belongings? If we are the each the f&ds (which was my initial reasoning), what is he appointing us over?
I honestly don't know. That is Jesus' fault btw. I test very well on reading comprehension :-) If it was important for anyone to know, would there be a question?
Also, if you use an analogy to make a point, and you flesh it out a little to make the story sound familier to your listeners, do you then expect your listeners to pick apart your analogy word by word, seeking to find hidden but important meaning in every nook and cranny of the story?
Suppose you accept the reasoning that Jesus wanted a committee formed, but for some odd reason didn't want to just say "form a governing committee based on X, Y, and Z"..... supposing that is the case; the Governing Body of Jehovahs Witnesses, Pastor Russell, Judge Rutherford, and their ilk... have been ANYTHING BUT faithful and discreet. A little reading is all it takes to see that.
When I asked where this F&DS was between the death of the apostles (the original F&DS according to him), and when the JW's came into existence in the late 1800's, he said that the F&DS had always been in existence since the death of the apostles, but that it only needed to be "revealed" once the apostasy got bad and the last days were here because the F&DS's purpose was to give spiritual food at the proper time (last days).
You instincts are right on here RS.
Question for your elder friend : IF the FDS has always been around then who did Pastor Russell (The JW?s founder in the late 1800?s) learn the truth from - himself or from the FDS? If FDS, who were they?
Question for your elder friend : Since the FDS primary commision was to preach the good news, what group in history, say 500 years ago, was busy doing this? Surely he can point to at least one historical group of preachers in the past 1900 years before Russell, right?
Then tell me ... what does it mean that Jesus said he'd appoint the f&ds over all of His belongings? If we are the each the f&ds (which was my initial reasoning), what is he appointing us over?
The scripture doesn?t say, nor does it attempt to make a point over this. One could speculate that this cooresponds with other passages that encourage people to go on to teach non-believers (Jesus non-household belongings?) Who knows, who cares. It doesn't say and is obviously not the point or Jesus would have elaborated on this. Instead Jesus elaborated on the "being faithful" part and the consequences for being unfaithful and abusive. Obviously this is the point he was trying to make since this is what he emphasised. It simply says that the ?Slave who remained faithful" after being entrusted, WILL BE REWARDED with greater trust. The slaves reward was greater trust through greater responsibility.
**Who was Jesus speaking to in Matt 24? -His Disciples.
**Did they receive greater responsibility after remaining faithful while the master was away? ? Apparently so.
**Did those who failed to be faithful know how Jesus would react? - Apparently so.
**Why would Jesus say this to his students (Disciples) if he did NOT intend for them to learn from it?
The Society believes and teaches that ALL of Matt 24 was written for the FIRST for his disciples. However, they have this convenient little belief in ?dual fulfillments? or ?greater fulfillments? where a prophecy actually has 2 applications according to them. Usually, they will note a primary application, (like MATT 24 which first applies in the 1st century) the proceed to wild speculations on it?s ?greater meaning? (like a later application of Matt 24).
That's how they came up with almost all of their whacky teachings about Pyramids, Miracle Wheat, and Armageddon in 1914, 1925 and 1975.
Imagine the license that gives them. Any prophecy can be re applied as a "secondary fulfillment" to suit their needs. And, as you'll likely find out, that's exactly what they do!
My friend, I have a piece of advice to you: Run, run, run, run away....
Like you, I'm also a parent. My little one was 4 year old when myself and wife woke up, and leaving the WTS religion was the best, and I mean THE BEST, decision we've ever made.
The things you described are not but only a fraction of the pain and distress you and your children WILL go through.
Observador.
Hello RS,
Sorry to hear that you're going through so much grief over this. But I think you're on the right track.
As far as this F&DS thing goes, as sixofnine points out, it's just not that difficult. Common sense, as displayed by virtually all other Christian religious groups who read Matthew 24, tells us that the illustration has everything to do with individual Christians and nothing to do with a specially appointed group of "anointed" who tell all other Christians what to do.
A bit of history on the F&DS doctrine taught by JWs: Until about 1894, the Bible Students' view (dictated by their founder Charles Taze Russell) was the same as that of other Christians. About that time there arose a serious marital problem between Charles and his wife Maria (Maria was an editor of Zion's Watch Tower and, it turns out, the principle author of the Millennial Dawn books published by the Watch Tower Society up to then), which they soon resolved. Maria then came up with the idea that the "faithful and wise servant" (using KJV terminology) was a specific person appointed by God in "the last days", and that that person was none other than her husband. Charles gradually came to accept this title, and although he never claimed it in public, he did so in private, and all the Bible Students came to revere him as "that servant". The Watch Tower Society taught this as a specific doctrine from shortly after Russell's death in 1916 through about 1927, when J. F. Rutherford decided that "the Society", with him in firm control, was actually the composite "faithful slave". About 1935 Rutherford came up with the doctrine of a heavenly "anointed" class as opposed to an earthly "great crowd" class, and he then changed the F&DS doctrine such that all of the "anointed" were said to be part of this "slave". However, in practice then, as today, most of the people who claim to be of this "anointed class" had nothing whatsoever to do with providing "spiritual food in due season" to the community of JWs -- all of this "food" comes from a few men in Brooklyn and nowhere else.
Note that the actual history of this doctrine proves that it's simply a "doctrine of men", and like so many other Watchtower doctrines, has evolved over time. Also note that, if any appointing of a claimed "slave" has been done, it has demonstrably been done only by the people who claim to be that "slave". No one has seen any sort of miraculous manifestations from God about this. They claim that their works prove them right, but a careful look at the history of the JWs and Bible Students shows that they're no better Christians than anyone else, and in some cases they're a lot worse than the Christians they love to criticize. In fact, it's easy to show, from JW publications, that the Bible Students fit the modern-day JW definition of "apostate".
Here is perhaps the most important disproof of all of the JW F&DS doctrine: Like I told you in a post on page 8 of this thread, the JW doctrine of the F&DS slave is internally inconsistent, because it has the events of Matthew 24:45-47 (they claim that JW leaders were specially appointed "over all of Christ's belongings" in 1919) occuring many decades before the events of verses 32-41 (which they teach will soon take place as part of "the great tribulation"), whereas from the text itself, it's obvious that the events are part of a continuing sequence. Since the JW teaching clearly contradicts the Bible, the doctrine is wrong and cannot be part of any "spiritual food" coming from a JW "slave class". Therefore the people who are teaching that there is a "slave class" are teaching falsehoods in God's name.
From your post, it's obvious that the PO was giving you the standard ridiculous arguments that JWs use to deceive people into believing that their leaders comprise a composite "faithful and discreet slave". Let's look at each of your statements of what he said and see what's wrong with what he told you.
: "Well based on Mat 24, which consists of Jesus speaking about what would happen in the "last days", do you think there would be a F&DS giving the spiritual food at the proper time?" (It would seem so)
This question contains many false assumptions. First, it assumes that we today are living in "the last days". This JW doctrine is dicey, at best, in terms of purely textual considerations of Matt. 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21. Their claims about 1914 and a "composite sign" visible since 1914 are demonstrably false. I've shown above that their claims about Matt. 24:45 are false. So the guy was using a pile of false assumptions to lead you to a false conclusion.
: "Who do you think the ONLY group is that represents the things Jesus talked about here ... such as being hated in Jesus' name, giving PROPER spiritual food at the right time, keeping on the watch during the last days, preaching the good news, etc?" (Answer was supposed to be the JWs, obviously)
Another bunch of false assumptions. JWs are no more or less "hated in Jesus' name" than plenty of other Christian groups. They are indeed highly criticized by many, but as you've seen from many discussions on this board, often properly so. Have JWs really given "PROPER spiritual food at the right time"? Would you consider predicting Armageddon for 1914, 1918, 1920, 1925, 1941, 1975, 2000, and strongly hinting about several other years, to be doing that? Aren't such false predictions proof that, far from "keeping watch", they've been crying wolf? Note what Jesus, in Luke 21:8 said about those who make false predictions in his name: "See to it that you are not misled; for many will come in My name, saying, 'I am He,' and, 'The time is near ' Do not go after them." Do the JWs leaders claim to come in Jesus' name? The F&DS doctrine proves that they do. Do they preach that "the time is near"? You know they do, and they've been doing it for 120 years. So then, Jesus' words apply: "Do not go after them."
: "When Jesus said he would appoint this F&DS over all of his belongings, what do you think this means?" (We then discussed that it "should" mean the F&DS would be given more power/authority, ie: reigning as kings with Jesus in heaven)
Again a pile of uproven and disproven assumptions. Were JW leaders appointed in 1919? Obviously not.
: When I asked where this F&DS was between the death of the apostles (the original F&DS according to him), and when the JW's came into existence in the late 1800's, he said that the F&DS had always been in existence since the death of the apostles, but that it only needed to be "revealed" once the apostasy got bad and the last days were here because the F&DS's purpose was to give spiritual food at the proper time (last days).
A non-answer. It's all smoke and mirrors. You still have no idea -- and neither do the JWs -- who was supposed to be that F&DS during all that time. No matter what person or group one might propose, all of them fail the test that JWs apply. A 1971(?) Watchtower article claimed that one generation of "the slave" fed another, from the 1st century down to today. But C. T. Russell is the only person they can come up with who they say fits the bill in modern times. So just who "fed" Russell? JWs reject all of the possibilities. For example, Russell got the entire 1914 idea from one Nelson Barbour, a Second Adventist, whom the JWs now label an apostate.
: Some of what he said made sense (sigh), but I'm still not convinced that the JW have the F&DS. Basically it sounds like to me that the JW's GB decided that they had the F&DS because they were closest to doing Christ's teachings than anyone else.
That's about it. But as I've shown above, their claims are false. What they do is to try to convince people to accept this doctrine without proof. They expect people to be "like an ass" to be led by a halter (this is actually stated in a Watchtower article, believe it or not). People who'll be led like this are not thinking clearly, and that's exactly what JWs are looking for -- people just like themselves.
AlanF
Another bunch of false assumptions. JWs are no more or less "hated in Jesus' name" than plenty of other Christian groups. They are indeed highly criticized by many, but as you've seen from many discussions on this board, often properly so. Have JWs really given "PROPER spiritual food at the right time"? Would you consider predicting Armageddon for 1914, 1918, 1920, 1925, 1941, 1975, 2000, and strongly hinting about several other years, to be doing that? Aren't such false predictions proof that, far from "keeping watch", they've been crying wolf? Note what Jesus, in Luke 21:8 said about those who make false predictions in his name: "See to it that you are not misled; for many will come in My name, saying, 'I am He,' and, 'The time is near ' Do not go after them." Do the JWs leaders claim to come in Jesus' name? The F&DS doctrine proves that they do. Do they preach that "the time is near"? You know they do, and they've been doing it for 120 years. So then, Jesus' words apply: "Do not go after them."
This is a scripture I've thought about time and again to mean just what you said. And I don't see any other way to interpret that scripture than how you did (and I have). Really, it says it all (I've never heard my Priest say the end is near, while the JWs say it every other minute). And why is it that my husband cannot disprove that interpretation of that scripture, yet he continues to follow along? It makes me so upset to think of him as "like them" (following blindly) - he's SUCH a smart man!!!
Thanks Alan, your post helps (me, anyway).
RS, here's something that happened to me some years ago with respect to Luke 21:8 and the command not to go after false teachers:
By 1993 I was having extreme difficulties trying to get the JW organization to deal with a number of fundamental problems I saw with their teachings. In late 1993 it was arranged that I have a phone conversation with Governing Body member Albert Schroeder. We discussed a number of things, and the result was that I sent him a pile of documentation, and had his promise to consider it carefully. Come the following summer, I had to be in New York on business, so I tried to get Schroeder to see me in person to discuss what he had done with my material. Turns out he claimed he hadn't looked at it yet, and he refused to see me, but said that I could call him at his office one Saturday morning. I did, and we talked for about 45 mintues. Turns out that by then he had looked over some of my stuff and decided not to fulfill his promise and do anything with it. So I asked him about Luke 21:8. He got out his NWT and read it aloud. I asked him if he understood its implications with respect to Jehovah's Witnesses having repeatedly said, "the time is at hand" and having been wrong every time. He hemmed and hawed, and we went back and forth for about five minutes, me trying to get him to answer. Finally he said, "You're not going to let go of this until I give you an answer, are you?" I said no, and that I wanted to know from him why the scripture couldn't apply to JWs. He said, "It CAN'T apply to us, because we're God's people!" Well, at that point I knew what sort of person I was dealing with, and so I quickly ended the conversation. It should be obvious to you, RS, that this shows that the entire JW notion of a F&DS is based on nothing more than a claim to be "God's people" and that plenty of other doctrines like it are based on similar circular reasoning.
AlanF
