Studying with JWs - Confused, Conflicted ...

by RebelliousSpirit 278 Replies latest members private

  • outoftheorg
    outoftheorg

    Hi again rebel.

    I have been away on a job for a few days and only now read all your posts and the replies.

    I have only three comments to add to all the others.

    Read again the info Alan had regarding the fds issues.

    The fds group were born due to their own self declaration. ANY group or person who is a self proclaimed, expert, prophet, etc' is to be viewed with extreme caution.

    They are almost never what they claim to be. The last one to make these claims and is accepted by many, lived around 2000 years ago "jesus".

    The conduct, actions, teachings and arrogance of the fds would be thoroughly condemned by jesus.

    As others have said, be very kind and caring to your husband. He just might see the difference between true love and the jw style of love.

    You have my very best wishes to you in this struggle.

    Outoftheorg

  • RebelliousSpirit
    RebelliousSpirit

    Was talking to Joyzabel in chat and thought of something - a song I really, really like. I wanted to share it with the rest of you, maybe you can appreciate it as well.

    WHAT I NEED

    I knew all the answers
    The way my life should go
    And when I used to say my prayers
    I would tell God so
    It seemed He wasn't listening
    I thought He didn't care
    But lookin' back
    It's plain to see
    He was always there

    'Cause I prayed for strength
    And I got pain that made me strong
    I prayed for courage
    And got fear to overcome
    When I prayed for faith
    My empty heart brought me to my knees
    I don't always get what I want
    I get what I need

    I'm not sayin' that it's easy
    Or that it doesn't hurt
    When nothing seems to go my way
    Nothing seems to work
    These days I'm getting better
    At goin' with the flow
    Accepting that sometimes the answer
    To a prayer is no

    'Cause I prayed for strength
    And I got pain that made me strong
    I prayed for courage
    And got fear to overcome
    When I prayed for faith
    My empty heart brought me to my knees
    I don't always get what I want
    I get what I need

    Every time I've had a door slammed in my face
    In time a better one was opened in its place

    I prayed for strength
    And I got pain that made me strong
    I prayed for courage
    And got fear to overcome
    When I prayed for faith
    My empty heart brought me to my knees
    I don't always get what I want
    I get what I need

    Oh I don't always get what I want
    I get what I need

    -Collin Raye

  • anuva
    anuva

    anuva

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    Sleepless in Seattle, here. Rebellious Spirit, this comment so reminded me of my early arguments with my JW husband:

    I feel like I'm talking to broken records - they always site the same scriptures, use the same coined phrases - no matter who I ask the question to!

    When directly threatened, my hubby breaks in to a robotic mantra, repeating over and over, "I know it is the Truth." Very scary to watch. As I have learned more about cognitive dissonance, I have come to realize that when I hear that voice, I am not talking to my husband, but the put-on personality imposed by the WTBTS.

    That does not mean there is no hope. Your real husband is in there somewhere. A handy tip that has served me well is to address the genuine personality. You know the hobbies and interests that makes your husband unique and interesting. I think you have mentioned some of them here. Address that person. Even in a heated argument, you can bring him back by reminding him of who he is. "Honey you know you always take on life with a passion, just like you beat the h**** out of those drums." or something similar. I believe that tip came from Steve Hassan's book, "Combatting Mind Control." I have not read the book myself yet, but I am pretty confident my hit-and-miss approach has mostly "hit" because I use this tip of addressing the genuine personality, not the made-up one.

    Understanding when you are hearing the robot-person can help, too. As soon as you hear that person, don't attack it directly. That only shoves the real person deeper inside. Since this is an easily recognizable put-on personality, it is also easy to recognize it and deal with it. We know what your husband will say next because we heard the same words in the drama from the last JW convention! That is why boards like this are so valuable. We alert each other on the latest WTBTS putsch, and prepare mental and intellectual defences for it.

  • poipoi
    poipoi

    I wander have you told your husband how you feel like you do on here. Maybe you do. The thing is it is your relationship with Jehoavh God. The bible has a lot of princapl allowing you to make your decisions. Nobody else shouldn't tell you are judge you. When you are persueing God and praying to him he will help, maybe in ways you are not thinking of he is answering. Yes it is good that you do ask questions and not to lean upon your own understanding Prov 3: 5... Everything else the blood issue, how you want to hanlde the discaplining of your own kids you will come to an understanding. This life in this sytem of things may seem what there is but question is also , this life or is it forever. Knowing and being aware of your relationship with Jehovah God is what matters and he knows what is in your heart. I can go on and on about all the things that were brought out but it dosen't matter really, dose it, if you are striveing for that relationship and to love God with your whole heart and mind you will take the nessecary steps for your spiritual health so that you can gian favor in Jehovah Gods eyes; and you know the rest. AS for your children they have just as much of a right as you do, and they one day will be accountable for themselves. How will you contrbute to their up bringing and their spiritual health as well. I hope that you will find this encourageing and thought provoking. I pray for you the best and i give you a sisterly Hello. It may that they are stumbleing you but will you allow that to get in the way. Modesty and humility, we all need to work on it. lol

  • anuva
    anuva

    POIPOI said ......

    I wander have you told your husband how you feel like you do on here. Maybe you do. The thing is it is your relationship with Jehoavh God.

    this is from a bible student of JWs, -...that they do not tell about their TRUTHS, and do not care about runing their relationship with THEIR jehovah BY TACTFULLY REMOVING any reference to ALL new LIGHTS ........ about THEIR ...ALLEGED CHANNEL OF GOD ??

    that the channel of god includes...

    • USE OF EGYPT PYRAMIDS.
    • PROMISING BLACKS WILL BORN WHITE IN NEW SYSTEM.
    • THE FOUNDER RUSSELL WAS ACCUSED FOR ADULTARY BY OWN WIFE ..MAry and SHE obtained DIVEORCE
    • the drunken rutherford , 2nd president , rejecting the BANN on liquor in USA , in WT books..
    • Banning ..Vaccination as ungodly , and eating of animal BLOOD.
    • Banning Organ transplants as Cannibalism.
    • discovering the name of god 'jehovah ' in 1931 .
    • and need not say , trying to act as those about whom JESUS had said ..."nobody knows the hour "...by constantly PRomising falsely as prophet to CALCULATE the END , at least 3 times , and being FAILED BY JEHOVAH
    • rape is fornication
    • head covering of women
    • need i say research about 2 women who constantly remained with president rutherford...and his legal wife lived away from him for most of life,
    • appointing elders by calculating the TIME adn service done to BOOK publishing house in brooklyn and not bible study ??
    • and what happened to 2 witness required for marital abuse , and molested children's prayers ?

    The bible has a lot of principal allowing you to make your decisions.

    yes poipoi ask WTs that they do not cause me TO STUMBLE, they BETTER INCLUDE ABOVE ...NEW LIGHTS ...in their ...."what does....." brochure ......

    i hope you WILL ..ask them not to stumble me over hidden NEW LIGHTS

    Nobody else shouldn't tell you are judge you. When you are persueing God and praying to him he will help, maybe in ways you are not thinking of he is answering. Yes it is good that you do ask questions and not to lean upon your own understanding Prov 3: 5... Everything else the blood issue, how you want to hanlde the discaplining of your own kids you will come to an understanding. This life in this sytem of things may seem what there is but question is also , this life or is it forever. Knowing and being aware of your relationship with Jehovah God is what matters and he knows what is in your heart. I can go on and on about all the things that were brought out but it dosen't matter really, dose it, if you are striveing for that relationship and to love God with your whole heart and mind you will take the nessecary steps for your spiritual health so that you can gian favor in Jehovah Gods eyes;

    OR in the eyes of any BOOK publishing company ???OR may be you are saying your jehovah ...that was born in 1931 ?? please do tell ?

    with warm love ,

    from all true christians who follow bible

    i invite you to our company ..

    anuva

  • RebelliousSpirit
    RebelliousSpirit
    I wander have you told your husband how you feel like you do on here. Maybe you do. The thing is it is your relationship with Jehoavh God.

    My husband is well aware of how I feel about this whole thing. He is also well aware that I post here. He isn't critical of me and he knows that he doesn't own me. My respect for my husband is not in question here, which leaves him no room to give me a hard time about a choice that is mine.

    The bible has a lot of princapl allowing you to make your decisions. Nobody else shouldn't tell you are judge you.

    Yes the Bible has many wonderful principles to guide the lives of godly people - no doubt! But that's just it - when the line is crossed between Biblical principle and Organization principle - I have a problem with that.

    Jehovah was clear that we need not fear man - " Trembling at men is what lays a snare, but he that is trusting in Jehovah will be protected." (Proverbs 29:25) - why is it then that the organization of JWs instills fear of them (men!!) in so many??

    Jehovah was very clear that no man has the power or right to judge another - " But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you also look down on your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of God. . ." (Romans 14:10) - yet JW's are judged for their every action by the elders, other members of the congregation - everyone is under constant scrutiny to "preserve the moral cleanness of the congregation".

    Where exactly does free will come in to this arrangement? They may as well say, "You have free will, but let it be known that you will be punished by the Org if you choose to exercise that free will!" Is that some serious emotional blackmail, or what??? Jehovah wants us to follow him of our own free will, but JWs take that option away using manipulation and blackmail! How exactly is that harmonious with God's will? How exactly does that prove Satan wrong when the point is to prove to Satan that God's people serve him of their own FREE WILL?? " Be wise, my son, and make my heart rejoice, that I may make a reply to him that is taunting me. . ." (Proverbs 27:11)

    I have no problems following the things that Jehovah expects of his people - I do, however, have a problem following the laws of men, imperfect men - not the apostles who had dinner with Jesus and KNEW exactly what he and Jehovah expected - but imperfect men who are no more qualified to interpret the Word of God than the next person.

    Everything else the blood issue, how you want to hanlde the discaplining of your own kids you will come to an understanding. This life in this sytem of things may seem what there is but question is also , this life or is it forever. Knowing and being aware of your relationship with Jehovah God is what matters and he knows what is in your heart.

    I will come to an understanding? And what if my understanding never jives with what the JWs expect of me? Then they turn me away and deem me unworthy of a relationship with Jehovah God?

    You're right, my relationship with Jehovah is what truly matters, and since he knows 110% what is in my heart and how desperately I want to serve him the way he would have me serve him - I know that I'm going to be just fine.

    I can go on and on about all the things that were brought out but it dosen't matter really, dose it, if you are striveing for that relationship and to love God with your whole heart and mind you will take the nessecary steps for your spiritual health so that you can gian favor in Jehovah Gods eyes; and you know the rest.

    And exactly what are those "necessary steps" required to "gain Jehovah's favor"? And who is more qualified to say so than Jehovah himself??

    ((The cookie cutter statements/responses REALLY make me nuts - anyone else??)

    AS for your children they have just as much of a right as you do, and they one day will be accountable for themselves. How will you contrbute to their up bringing and their spiritual health as well.

    How will I "contribute"? By being their mother - I think that's pretty self explanatory. I am their mother, Jehovah himself gave them to me, they are my responsibility - thusly, I will raise them as I see fit. Granted my husband and I ultimately raise our children together, but rest assured that my husband and I are in total agreement on how to raise our children - and his reinstatement doesn't change a thing.

    I pray for you the best and i give you a sisterly Hello. It may that they are stumbleing you but will you allow that to get in the way. Modesty and humility, we all need to work on it. lol

    That who is stumbling me?

    The only ones "stumbling me" are the JWs themselves! I switched to studying with someone in my husband's hall, and I am being stumbled all over the place (if that's what you want to call it - I prefer to call it having my head f*cked with)!! My study conductor "stumbles" me with her "submissive wife" routine, with her anger and resentment bubbling over about her DF family member, with her unrealistic view of the imperfect world we live in ("we don't watch TV because it was distracting us" and "we only listen to music that is positive and upbuilding"), with her implications that I should just accept things as they are without truly understanding it, etc. I like my study conductor a whole lot as a person - but as a JW, she has basically scared me away from the whole thing without even realizing it! Oops!

    I have no problem with modesty or humility. I would humble myself to Jehovah God anyday without question. It's not Jehovah I question ...

    Apologies to any and all for my tone today - I have just had it UP TO HERE with this whole thing! ::sigh::

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    Oh Rebellious Spirit, thanks for the hearty laugh today! Those buzz words really got to you, huh? I find your responses to be lucid and heartfelt. I, too, think you will have no problem developing a healthy relationship with God (away from the society's influence).

    Did you notice the suggestion that if you just acquiesce to the process, you will "get used to it" over time? That is what scares me the most. That I could lose my self in that organization.

  • RebelliousSpirit
    RebelliousSpirit
    Did you notice the suggestion that if you just acquiesce to the process, you will "get used to it" over time? That is what scares me the most. That I could lose my self in that organization.

    OMG woman! I was saying that very thing to my husband and MIL long before I ever came to JWD. When I started getting nervous because of that very implication (oh, you'll "get used to it") - I specifically told them that I did not want to lose my self to the org!!

    And ironically enough it was my study conductor that made me start thinking that I could lose my sense of self if I became a JW. I hadn't felt that way until I started studying with her and noticing "little things" - like how she always defers to her husband! My MIL told me that is totally not necessary and is "overboard" - but I can't help but think it would be expected of me, and I am not ok with that. My husband and I respect each other, we have an equitable marriage and neither of us is more qualified as a spouse that any deferring need be going on. KWIM??

    I gave up my sense of self once, I will never do it again. Let whomever has the balls tell me I lack humility (I know it's one of the coined phrases, and I expect to hear it sooner or later), I don't give a d@mn - I am humble as Jehovah God made me - but pardon me if my humility is not an open license to be walked all over, taken advantage of, or sh!t on.

    Did I mention I'm PMS'ing?

  • Shakita
    Shakita

    Hey RS,

    I like your sound reasoning.

    Where exactly does free will come in to this arrangement? They may as well say, "You have free will, but let it be known that you will be punished by the Org if you choose to exercise that free will!" Is that some serious emotional blackmail, or what??? Jehovah wants us to follow him of our own free will, but JWs take that option away using manipulation and blackmail! How exactly is that harmonious with God's will? How exactly does that prove Satan wrong when the point is to prove to Satan that God's people serve him of their own FREE WILL?? " Be wise, my son, and make my heart rejoice, that I may make a reply to him that is taunting me. . ." (Proverbs 27:11)

    Ay! That is the rub isn't it RS? The Witness organization claims that we have free will. Yet, if we dare make a decision based on our own free will that conflicts with the WT Society then they will kick us and our free will to the curb. Keep using your very capable reasoning ability to send the dubbies scurrying away from you. That is so true about manipulation and blackmail. You are fortunate to be on the outside looking in. If you were a baptized dubbie and decided to exercise your free will as you have done, they wouldn't hesitate to disfellowship you. And you know what that would mean.

    Poipoi: Maybe you could learn how to spell and write a coherent sentence. Then after you have done that, it may be helpful to remove the WT glaze that has affected your eyes. Your paragraph sounds like it was recited by a WT drone. Would you please use your brain and not the collective consciousness of the WT Society?

    Mr. Shakita

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