Studying with JWs - Confused, Conflicted ...

by RebelliousSpirit 278 Replies latest members private

  • bebu
    bebu

    RS, let me give you an example of how I manage my situation, which isn't so far off from yours.

    When my JW neighbor started to try to share her religion with me, she gave me a booklet, Should You Believe the Trinity? I had seen this booklet before, years ago. I already knew that the JW's had a ton of whacky history and unsupportable doctrines; I had already read that booklet, and I think it's in a file somewhere (so now I actually have 2 of them). But I read it afresh and found myself thinking, what is the rebuttal for these claims? (Like I mentioned above, there is a need to check for rebuttals/questions.) Because in the booklet, it lends itself to a fairly air-tight case.

    I went online, which is what one can do these days (as opposed to yesteryear)... and found all kinds of sites dedicated to uncovering the piecemeal tactics of WT arguments: misquoting, misleading, editing carefully to present a false conclusion... and I was disgusted all over again at the deception in that booklet.

    When I talked to my friend about this eventually, I told her that I had been so concerned about the good-sounding claims in the booklet that I decided to research them myself. And that what I learned actually cast more doubt on the WT's integrity. She has no ground for telling me I CAN'T research anything! I'm not baptised, remember? And if she asks me if I got the information at an apostate site, I say, "Information is true or false in itself, regardless of its source." I don't have to toe the JW line at all! I have the works of the Anti-Nicene Fathers on a disc, and I am able to look up the quotes in context, for example, besides find them easily online. If an apostate source quotes the reference in full and get it right, then they are right!

    My friend has nothing to say in response. I have the moral upperhand in refusing to accept WT reportings now, at least without verifying everything, because I can show her specifically where they were intellectually dishonest. She has to give me better substantiation.

    Beside the tactic of misquoting, they use poor logic in guilt by association, or making conclusions out of correlations (there are Latin names for these kinds of fallacies in logic, but I can't remember their names right now! ). So, for example, three-headed gods from local nations are NOT an airtight case for Christians creating a trinity out of pagan roots, much as they would like to insist. She says it is; I say it's not conclusive in any way, so it's a draw; we can't go any further on this tack, so we drop it.

    But I don't rub her face in it. And whenever I see a problem, I tell her that something looks like a red flag to me, and I can't just rush past it. And when I do research it, I can show her that there's just not the "case" for the WT as she has believed. Maybe this is a reason she tends to avoid preaching to me now...

    Like I said before, you really are in an ideal situation, not blocked in at all. Once you are able to finish grieving emotionally over the situation of being so far from God after all... after feeling so close!.... you might recognize that you have been certainly rescued early from a very miserable fate, which is a cause for some thankfulness (you'll probably feel more thankful as more time goes by).

    (((((RS))))) Again, I'm not saying you must turn into a big apologist. I'm just saying, dig in your heels in a nice way, as you refuse to compromise with integrity. People will eventually leave you alone because they can't satisfy you, if nothing else!

    Sorry if this all sounds redundant to my earlier post, but I thought it might help to see exactly the kind of thing I meant. Of all potential conditions you could have as a wife to a JW, count yourself blessed!

    bebu

  • anuva
    anuva

    Hello RS

    I saw your posts all in sequence , and thought may be I can share some thoughts for you to think upon .

    It would be better to share it on board …so I will be posting on board ..okay …

    It was really nice to discover some similar things with your personality , on chat board couple of days ago …

    I really look Fwd to share more with you …

  • anuva
    anuva

    I do know that they count time. But you'd think she'd be happy considering I have 4 hour studies. And I was studying 3 times/week

    Ø not only the time is counted, but it is only measure of your spirituality , and a decisive point when considering, the selection of NEW elders by WTBTS !!! do not believe this , I have scans of time report form , and copies of letters from BETHEL for elders , else we can wait till you research for answers yourself .

  • anuva
    anuva

    Hello RS

    I saw your posts all in sequence , and thought may be I can share some thoughts for you to think upon .

    It would be better to share it on board …so I will be posting on board ..okay …

    It was really nice to discover some similar things with your personality , on chat board couple of days ago …

    I really look Fwd to share more with you …

  • anuva
    anuva

    may be i put on a NEW thread FOR ..rebellious spirit, as this board do not allow me to cut and paste all info i want to ....post

    anuva

  • RebelliousSpirit
    RebelliousSpirit

    Hi all ... update from me.

    I went to my study on Saturday - but before I went I talked to my conductor on the phone, told her how far I had gotten with MIL in the Worship book, and suggested we use the study for "catching up" personally, reviewing chapters 1-4, and discussing some questions that have come up lately. She was fine with that, so I went. Of course I walked in and her husband (the KH PO) was sitting there waiting for me along with her. Suprise, surprise - not. Somehow I knew he'd be the one doing the "work" that day, fielding my big questions, you know. So, that's exactly how it went. After we chatted personally for awhile, my conductor barely said 2 words the rest of the study and her husband did all of the "question answering".

    We spent most of the time discussing the F&DS issue. It went something like this:

    We read Matthew ch. 24 and talked about the signs of the last days.

    He then said things such as :

    "Well based on Mat 24, which consists of Jesus speaking about what would happen in the "last days", do you think there would be a F&DS giving the spiritual food at the proper time?" (It would seem so)

    "Who do you think the ONLY group is that represents the things Jesus talked about here ... such as being hated in Jesus' name, giving PROPER spiritual food at the right time, keeping on the watch during the last days, preaching the good news, etc?" (Answer was supposed to be the JWs, obviously)

    "When Jesus said he would appoint this F&DS over all of his belongings, what do you think this means?" (We then discussed that it "should" mean the F&DS would be given more power/authority, ie: reigning as kings with Jesus in heaven)

    He talked about the apostasy that began after Jesus' death, as prophisied. He tried to illustrate that the F&DS isn't just the 12 apostles or 1 particular person, but many disciples (it would be WAY too much work for one person, according to him).

    When I asked where this F&DS was between the death of the apostles (the original F&DS according to him), and when the JW's came into existence in the late 1800's, he said that the F&DS had always been in existence since the death of the apostles, but that it only needed to be "revealed" once the apostasy got bad and the last days were here because the F&DS's purpose was to give spiritual food at the proper time (last days).

    Some of what he said made sense (sigh), but I'm still not convinced that the JW have the F&DS. Basically it sounds like to me that the JW's GB decided that they had the F&DS because they were closest to doing Christ's teachings than anyone else.

    We also talked about the blood issue a little bit. He was stuck on the "a transfusion is like eating blood because if you can't eat the hospital feeds you through IV" thing. We didn't get much farther than that. And I have my own arguments against that theory to present to him at a later date.

    So I then tried to go to Mass that evening. A good clue as to how out of it I've been is that I got there at the END of Mass. They changed the d@mn time for Mass and I didn't even know it! I was so upset. So I went and stood in the doorway behind the alter - Father caught my eye at one point and gave me a slightly puzzled look. Anyway, I joined in the last prayer and sang the recessional hymn. Can you believe it was entitled "They will know we are Christians by our love"??? I almost died, since we all know that is the BIG line JW's use to convince people that they are the true Christians. After the recessional, I knelt down and prayed. I found myself begging for God's forgiveness that I am so messed up right now, begging him to help me see the truth. By the time I was done, I was crying. I then slinked up to the front of the church where I accidentally found Father taking his robe off. I tried to walk away but he caught my eye again and gave me a look that said, "come here". So I went up to him and he looked oddly at me. All I could get out was, "Father, I'm in big trouble right now" before I burst into tears. I asked him when I could make an appointment to talk to him. He said to call him right away Monday and "we'll get you straightened out". The conversation went no further than that, so he has no idea what's going on.

    I don't know how to take how being at Mass made me feel. I don't know what to think it means. I didn't go to the meeting yesterday for the first time in 8 months, I didn't feel like it. Whereas before I would have just done it, yesterday I just didn't. My husband didn't go either. He later asked me if I felt guilty about it (he did), and I told him I really didn't. Of course the PO called to "see if we were ok" because we missed the meeting. I'm sure he's genuine, but still.

    We have book study tonight, I intend to go. But I am really going over and over this in my mind - what does it all mean for me? I don't know.

  • SixofNine
    SixofNine

    C'mon. Read the scripture w/o any colorization.

    Jesus is giving the reader (that's you or me) a "self-check". "Who really is the being faithful and discreet?" You (or I) look at our own lives, and ask that question. A self check; "am I being faithful and discreet?". This ain't brain surgery... and when all is said and done, we don't even really know if Jesus ever uttered those words. But assuming he did, why try to construct a religion out of them? It's pretty obvious that he wasn't shooting for that.

    Assigning classes and levels of people with greater or lesser responsibility to "his belongings" and assigning authority over said people to a group of people, based on this scripture, is tortured and assanine reasoning.

  • AlmostAtheist
    AlmostAtheist
    I found myself begging for God's forgiveness that I am so messed up right now, begging him to help me see the truth.

    If I were God, I'd say something like, "My child, you don't need forgiveness. I want you to search for me. You're 'messed up' because you have been given very different answers to the same questions by people that sincerely believe they are serving me correctly. I love you, and I accept you as you are. I've given you a mind, use it. Serve me in the way that you determine is right."

    But I'm not God. (Surprise, surprise) So take it for what it's worth.

    Dave

  • RebelliousSpirit
    RebelliousSpirit
    Assigning classes and levels of people with greater or lesser responsibility to "his belongings" and assigning authority over said people to a group of people, based on this scripture, is tortured and assanine reasoning.

    Then tell me ... what does it mean that Jesus said he'd appoint the f&ds over all of His belongings? If we are the each the f&ds (which was my initial reasoning), what is he appointing us over?

    I sure as hell can't figure it out! ::sigh::

    Another question. The scripture goes like this:

    (Matthew 24:47) Truly I say to YOU, He will appoint him over all his belongings. . .

    Why is the "H" capitalized there, but nowhere else referring to he, him, his, etc? I was taught that a capital H refers to God. If so, the whole damn scripture's meaning gets blown out of the water, IMHO.

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    ..and I figure, if the FDS has been sorted out to the WTS satisfaction, who in the heck are the "ten virgins" today?

    Also, if you look at how many Christians were around for the first few centuries, the ones that supposedly were closest to Jesus' teaching, how many were martyred for their faith?. How does the WTBTS explain this? They get around this by claiming that many of these early martyrs were not "true" Christians. http://www.gospelcom.net/chi/

    AD 300 (NINE GENERATIONS AFTER CHRIST)
    Percent Christian: 10.4%
    Breakdown: 66.4% nonwhite, 33.6% white
    Evangelization: 35% of world
    Scriptures: 10 languages
    Total martyrs since AD 33: 410,000 (0.5% of all Christians ever; recent rate 1,540 per year)
    Source: David Barrett.

    I think that is the same as spitting on their graves.

    P.S. I see some of your protest, so I thought I would add...the story of the F & D S was not intended to be a prophecy of future events, but a morality tale on how each of us, as Christians, are to behave through the ages. We are all to treat others above ourselves. Jesus was not establishing a class of Christians. If so, there should be plenty of evidence of this in other scriptures, and there is not. When Paul talked about "little flock" he was referring to the Hebrew christians versus the Greek. There were two groups back then. They got over it, as Paul advised.

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