It can be concluded that minimum, 607 is arguable. There is zero proof showing that falsifies 607.
Scholar and Fisherman
by Jorden 207 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Jeffro
The Bible falsifies 607
Neo-Babylonian cuneiform business records falsify 607
The planetary positions in VAT 4956 falsify 607
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Vidqun
Jerusalem never lay desolate for seventy years. Here's a few relevant scriptures to indicate:
Seventy Years of Servitude: Three sieges. Five deportations. The Destruction of Jerusalem.
8 Therefore this is what Jehovah of armies has said, For the reason that YOU did not obey my words,
9 here I am sending and I will take all the families of the north, is the utterance of Jehovah, even [sending] to Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon, my servant, and I will bring them against this land and against its inhabitants and against all these nations round about; and I will devote them to destruction and make them an object of astonishment and something to whistle at and places devastated to time indefinite.
11 And all this land must become a devastated place, an object of astonishment, and these nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years.
12 And it must occur that when seventy years have been fulfilled I shall call to account against the king of Babylon and against that nation, is the utterance of Jehovah, their error, even against the land of the Chaldeans, and I will make it desolate wastes to time indefinite.
13 And I will bring in upon that land all my words that I have spoken against it, even all that is written in this book that Jeremiah has prophesied against all the nations. (Jer. 25:8, 9, 11-13)
For this is what Jehovah has said, In accord with the fulfilling of seventy years at Babylon [for Babylon, CSB, ESV, CSBO, NABO] I shall turn my attention to YOU people, and I will establish toward YOU my good word in bringing YOU back to this place. (Jer. 29:10)
This is what occurred as the word of Jehovah to Jeremiah the prophet concerning the nations,
2 For Egypt, concerning the military force of Pharaoh Necho the king of Egypt, who happened to be by the river Euphrates at Carchemish, whom Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon defeated in the fourth year of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah, the king of Judah (Jer. 46:1, 2)
12 And in the fifth month, on the tenth day of the month, that is, [in] the nineteenth year of King Nebuchadrezzar, the king of Babylon, Nebuzaradan the chief of the bodyguard, who was standing before the king of Babylon, came into Jerusalem.
13 And he proceeded to burn the house of Jehovah and the house of the king and all the houses of Jerusalem; and every great house he burned with fire. (Jer. 52:12, 13)
27 And these the king of Babylon proceeded to strike down and to put them to death in Riblah in the land of Hamath. Thus Judah went into exile from off its soil.
28 These are the people whom Nebuchadrezzar took into exile, in the seventh year, three thousand and twenty-three Judahites.
29 In the eighteenth year of Nebuchadrezzar, from Jerusalem there were eight hundred and thirty-two souls.
30 In the twenty-third year of Nebuchadrezzar, Nebuzaradan the chief of the bodyguard took Judahites into exile, seven hundred and forty-five souls. All the souls were four thousand and six hundred. (Jer. 52:27-30)
In the third year of the kingship of Jehoiakim the king of Judah, Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon came to Jerusalem and proceeded to lay siege to it. (Dan. 1:1)
So the angel of Jehovah answered and said, O Jehovah of armies, how long will you yourself not show mercy to Jerusalem and to the cities of Judah, whom you have denounced these seventy years? (Zech. 1:12)
20 Furthermore, he carried off those remaining from the sword captive to Babylon, and they came to be servants to him and his sons until the royalty of Persia began to reign;
21 to fulfill Jehovah's word by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had paid off its sabbaths. All the days of lying desolated it kept sabbath, to fulfill seventy years. (2 Chr. 36:20, 21)
An interesting article, attempting to harmonize the Bible with the Babylonian Chronicles is A. R. Green (1982). “The Chronology of the Last Days of Judah: Two Apparent Discrepancies.” Journal of Biblical Literature, 101, pp. 71, 72.
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Anony Mous
However, not one of those 2000 tablets mentions or refers to the biblical 70 years.
scholar JWNo duh, because the modern translation is wrong. The Bible is not a historical document, it talks in the language of signs and portents.
According to the Jews, "70 years" is a complete period of judgment from G-d, 7 being the natural order of things and 10 the number of completeness. So they were exiled "until the completion of the natural order of things" or "complete judgment", it's not literal.
Jews today accept that their leadership was exiled, but Jerusalem was historically never really abandoned, although scripture says it was a wasteland, they accept the historicity of ~50 years, they still call it '70 years' because it's a sign, not a fact. They accept that the place was never really abandoned and that at no point has anyone literally removed or torn down every stone from either the temple or the city walls as the Bible also predicts. Jews have lived in Jerusalem and the surrounding land for thousands of years continuously, even today, there are millions of people in the area, however they still call it spiritually 'abandoned' from the viewpoint of G-d no longer being present (with the holiest places currently being held by a terrorist state).
Literal interpretations of the text only started with late 19th century evangelicals looking for mystical connections and numerology, CT Russell and co being a big proponent of them, copying them from others such as Miller and giving it his own spin. The late 1800s and early 1900s were full of cults reinterpreting and giving several dates for apocalyptic events. Interestingly enough, all of these, take part of the text literally and part of the text to be figuratively, depending on what suits their current eschatology better. The WTBTS had predicted the end of the world based on the actually correct date of 587, only inventing 607 numerology when the promised end didn't happen and retroactively applying it to some other random event.
Also note that MOST of the texts (Daniel and Jeremiah) were written and edited long AFTER the destruction of Jerusalem by the Babylonians, again, something most modern Jews will accept and they say it is a "warning" to future generations, not a numerological prophecy involving advanced math. No Jew is waiting for the rebuilding of the temple to happen in 1914, you'd think they come to the same conclusion if it were so simple.
As far as the texts you don't take literal is these components of the same verses in Daniel that describe 70 years: to put an end to sin, to bring in everlasting righteousness, the description of four beasts and everything ELSE in Daniel, yet somehow you think the number 70 is relevant and literal and then only when it suits you, again, sometimes the WTBTS says that days and weeks are actually years, other times it does not, no explanation as to why other than to shoehorn in a falsified prophecy. Even Daniel said prophecy would END after the 70 years, yet WTBTS continues prophesying, Jesus supposedly prophesied after the Jews returned. I don't see an end to sin or everlasting righteousness anywhere happened literally.
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Jorden
It can be concluded that minimum, 607 is arguable.
Fisherman, but what is the point of defending 607?
For WTS/GB/JW's 607 = 2,520 years to 1914 which = 42-months to 1918 which was supposed to be a time period of cleansing/refinement/punishment from Jehovah which led to approving and appointing WTS/GB in 1919 to be F&DS.
But I have shown by use of the Scriptures and WTS publications that the 42-month period of cleansing/refinement/punishment from Jehovah did not take place in 1914-1918 and it is still future to occur. So, based on that, what justification is there for approving and appointing WTS/GB in 1919 to be F&DS?
Even if 607 date were correct, it would not matter to the fact that the 7th trumpet did not sound in 1914. The 42-months were not 1914- 1918.
Jehovah is not happy with his people currently and does not approve of them, that is why Jehovah brings the 42-month period upon them. The WTS/GB knows this and that is why they teach that that happen in 1914-1918 period, claiming that since then all is well with them and Jehovah. That he approves of them. But again, that is not the case, the 42-months were not back then they are still to come.
See WTS/GB and Scriptures say:
[5-15-15 WT p.29 – Who, then, is Gog of Magog? To answer that question, we need to search the Scriptures to find out who attacks God’s people. The Bible speaks not only of the attack by ‘Gog of Magog’ but also of the attack by “the king of the north” and of the attack by “the kings of the earth.” (Ezek. 38:2, 10-13; Dan. 11:40, 44, 45; Rev. 17:14; 19:19) Do these represent separate attacks? Not likely. The Bible is no doubt referring to the same attack under different names. Why can we draw that conclusion? Because the Scriptures tell us that all the nations of the earth will be involved in this final attack that prompts the war of Armageddon.—Rev. 16:14, 16.]
[Joel 2: 17 “Between the porch and the altar let the priests, the ministers of Jehovah, weep and say, ‘Do feel sorry, O Jehovah, for your people, and do not make your inheritance a reproach, for nations to rule over them. Why should they say among the peoples: “Where is their God?”’]
[Joel 3:1 “For, look! in those days and in that time, when I shall bring back the captive ones of Judah and Jerusalem, 2 I will also collect together all the nations and bring them down to the low plain of Je·hoshʹa·phat; and I will put myself on judgment with them there on account of my people and my inheritance Israel, whom they scattered among the nations; and they apportioned out my own land.]
[6-1-81 WT – We come now to part three, dealing with judgment and execution. (Joel 3:2-16, 19) It tells us why Jehovah is angry with the nations—because of the way they have treated his servants. They scattered them among the nations, making slaves of them. Also, they robbed Jehovah’s temple of its gold, silver and other desirable things, and brought these into their own temples. They did violence to the sons of Judah and shed innocent blood.]
[12-1-61 WT p.714 par. 8 – The worst plague of locusts and worms ever foretold to come was that one of which Jehovah’s prophet Joel gave forewarning. That plague was not threatened by Jehovah God without a just cause occasioned by his people. That is why in Joel’s prophecy Jehovah presents himself as at war with his own people. Here let
Christendomwho today claims to be God’s people take serious notice!][1-15-04 WT p.20 par.19 – As foretold in Ezekiel chapter 38, Satan will soon complete his role as “Gog of the land of Magog.” This will involve a worldwide attack on Jehovah’s people.]
[Ezekiel 39:23 And the nations will have to know that it was because of their error that they, the house of Israel, went into exile, on account of the fact that they behaved unfaithfully toward me, so that I concealed my face from them and gave them into the hand of their adversaries, and they kept falling, all of them, by the sword.’24 I dealt with them according to their uncleanness and their transgressions, and I hid my face from them.’]
[3-15-61 WT– Isaiah 29:4 reads: “And you must become low so that you will speak from the very earth, and as from the dust your saying will sound low. And like a spirit medium your voice must become even from the earth, and from the dust your own saying will chirp.”… These words show that God’s earthly organization would come under attack and would be reduced to a very low state by the enemies of God’s kingdom. God’s people would be, as it were, crushed to the earth, at the time of Gog’s attack upon them, so that what utterance they made, what vocal sounds they made, would come up from low down in their abasement.]
[Isaiah 29:2 I will bring distress on Ar´i·el, and there will be mourning and lamentation, and she must become to me as the altar hearth of God. 3 And I must encamp on all sides against you, and I must lay siege to you with a palisade and raise up against you siegeworks....13 And Jehovah* says: “For the reason that this people have come near with their mouth, and they have glorified me merely with their lips,+ and they have removed their heart itself far away from me,+ and their fear toward me becomes men’s commandment that is being taught,]
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scholar
Jeffro
The Bible falsifies 607
Neo-Babylonian cuneiform business records falsify 607
The planetary positions in VAT 4956 falsify 607
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The Bible clearly and most definitively falsifies 586 and 587 BCE
Neo Babylonian cuneiform business documents falsify 586 and 587 BCE
The planetary positions and the lunar positions in VAT 4956 falsify 586 and 587 BCE
scholar JW
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Anony Mous
@Scholar: What is your evidence, other than the Bible. Basically without using the Bible or WTBTS references, using only 'scholarly' accepted references.
Planetary positions should be the simplest to refer, which of the references talks about a very significant portent that would've been notable had ANYTHING coincided in 607, especially the destruction of a major city.
If you say the 70 years is literal, even the Bible wouldn't agree on when the 70 years starts and ends:
And all this land will be reduced to ruins and will become an object of horror, and these nations will have to serve the king of Babylon for 70 years.”
Jeremiah 25:11 – New World Translationin the first year of his reign I, Daniel, discerned by the books the number of years mentioned in the word of Jehovah to Jeremiah the prophet to fulfill the desolation of Jerusalem, namely, 70 years.
Daniel 9:2 - New World TranslationBased on the verses above, either they are in conflict, given Daniel references Jeremiah, or they aren't referencing an event, but rather a sign.
Daniel talks about "discerned by the books the number of years" which given he supposedly LIVED at the time, he would've "KNOWN", not needed to discern. This clearly shows 70 years wasn't literal, since he had to 'discern' the number.
So are you talking about the "desolation of Jerusalem" or "serving the king of Babylon"? Those are two different events, one came before the other, when did King Jehoiakim started sending tribute, why is the Bible even unclear about the event, even though they supposedly reference each other directly.
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Jeffro
‘scholar’:
The Bible clearly and most definitively falsifies 586 and 587 BCE
Relative to known events in Nebuchadnezzar’s reign such as the battle of Carchemish, the Bible actually falsifies 586 BCE and confirms 587BCE.Neo Babylonian cuneiform business documents falsify 586 and 587 BCE
Entirely false. Even the Watch Tower Society’s poor 2001 attempt admitted that the business documents are entirely consistent with the established chronology. Their footnote says: “Business tablets exist for all the years traditionally attributed to the Neo-Babylonian kings. When the years that these kings ruled are totaled and a calculation is made back from the last Neo-Babylonian king, Nabonidus, the date reached for the destruction of Jerusalem is 587 B.C.E.”The planetary positions and the lunar positions in VAT 4956 falsify 586 and 587 BCE
VAT 4956 contains planetary observations that categorically cannot be reconciled with 588 BCE (even if you pretend the names of the planets are ambiguous), hence it has no relevance to the destruction of Jerusalem in 587BCE.Why is ‘scholar’ so hopeless at this stuff? 🤦♂️
Now, why don’t you get back to trying to explain the problems with JW dogma that Jorden raised.
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scholar
Vidqun
An interesting article, attempting to harmonize the Bible with the Babylonian Chronicles is A. R. Green (1982). “The Chronology of the Last Days of Judah: Two Apparent Discrepancies.” Journal of Biblical Literature, 101, pp. 71, 72.
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The said scholar has this article in his theological library.
scholar 7W
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scholar
Jeffro
Relative to known events in Nebuchadnezzar’s reign such as the battle of Carchemish, the Bible actually falsifies 586 BCE and confirms 587BCE.
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Utter nonsense. Scholars today currently endorse 586 BCE rather than 587 BCE
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Entirely false. Even the Watch Tower Society’s poor 2001 attempt admitted that the business documents are entirely consistent with the established chronology. Their footnote says: “Business tablets exist for all the years traditionally attributed to the Neo-Babylonian kings. When the years that these kings ruled are totaled and a calculation is made back from the last Neo-Babylonian king, Nabonidus, the date reached for the destruction of Jerusalem is 587 B.C.E.”
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Such business documents necessitate the converting of any regnal data into a modern-day calendar and are subject to a 'fine tuning' in order o accommodate a 'twenty-year gap in the NB Period.
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VAT 4956 contains planetary observations that categorically cannot be reconciled with 588 BCE (even if you pretend the names of the planets are ambiguous), hence it has no relevance to the destruction of Jerusalem in 587 BCE.
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Rolf Furuli has researched this subject and proved that both the planetary observations along with the lunar observations are a better fit for 588 BCE rather than 568 BCE. Furuli is the only scholar to date that has researched and examined VAT 4956 since Neugebauer and Weidner, 1915.
scholar JW