Scholar and Fisherman

by Jorden 207 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Anony Mous
    Anony Mous

    Before you say the scientific evidence is arguable, there are over 2000 documents from the time that set the dates for the first and second siege of Jerusalem by the Babylonians, including the destruction of the temple in the second siege. It sets this from both contemporary dating methods as well as astronomical evidence. One thing the Babylonians were good at was keeping track of things, basically a bunch of bureaucrats. If you follow the WTBTS calculations, the sieges and mobilizations of troops from Babylon would’ve had to start before Nebuchadnezzar even started ruling.

    Note the WTBTS often use the same sources to prove a point but then inexplicably dismiss the same source for the remainder of the dates they set.

  • Jorden
    Jorden

    I said at the beginning of this thread:

    [Scholar and Fisherman, I started this thread because I didn't want to highjack the one in regard to 588/568.]

    I did this because I did not want to interrupt the discussion there, so I started this one just to ask the questions I have to Scholar and Fisherman. So why are there those that have to come post here and bring the same subject matter over here...PLEASE keep it there...


    Just read that Carl Olof Jonsson died yesterday (page 35) (jehovahs-witness.com)

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro

    Fisherman:

    Your flaw in logic and analysis is shown. First of all I’ve considered information on this thread from respected posters. I’ve also quoted from the Talmud and from Jewish sages such as Rashi, Moshe Ben Nachman, Rambam and others besides Christological books and other Bible commentators and languages throughout the years and more which you don’t know about. So again you are wrong.

    Wrong as usual. I didn’t say you’ve never read anything else. But you have been conditioned to only form your beliefs based on what the Watch Tower Society says. Name dropping some other works doesn’t change that. 🤦‍♂️ You have thoroughly demonstrated that you reject factual material that isn’t consistent with JW dogma. (But this thread isn’t for elaborating on those specifics.)

    Even if I wasn’t a JW I would still concur with WT You only want to argue. My beliefs have formed from observation and study of wt material and other sources but not because wt says so although I agree with wt approach to interpret the Bible and WT interpretation.

    Unlikely (with the exception that some very minor sects hold loosely similar beliefs), but if that were the case, your beliefs would still be wrong.

  • Vanderhoven7
    Vanderhoven7

    Good luck Jorden.

  • Jorden
    Jorden
    At present, JW believe that Jesus began ruling in 1914. However, the millennium starts after Armageddon. I don’t know how Revelation is going to play out exactly.

    Fisherman, technically the millennium can't start AFTER Armageddon but instead starts at Armageddon, The reason being is because ALL the chosen have to be with Jesus when Armageddon commences, and in order for ALL chosen to be with Jesus at that time, the 'first resurrection' would have to have occurred. In order for the 'first resurrection' to occur the 'last day' has to come and the 'last trumpet' has to sound.

    When Jesus comes AFTER the GT is when his chosen are gathered together to him. This coming will be on the 'last day', which is a 1,000 yearlong day. The chosen are resurrected at the time he comes. Look at the following and tell me if you agree or where you disagree:

    [John 11:24 “I know he will rise in the resurrection on the last day.”]
    [John 6:39 This is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose none out of all those whom he has given me, but that I should resurrect them on the last day.]
    [Rev 20:6 Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and they will rule as kings with him for the 1,000 years.]
    [2 Peter 3:8 But
    do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.]
    [1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming/presence of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. Then we the living who are surviving will, at the same time with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we shall always be with the Lord.]
    [1 Corinthians 15:52 in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we shall be changed.]
    [Matthew 24: 29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in lamentation, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send forth his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity.]
    [2 Thessalonians 2:1 Concerning the coming/presence of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,]


    [2-15-86 WT p.19 par.14 – It is understood that anointed Christians sleeping in death are raised at the sounding of “the last trumpet,” which takes place during the “manifestation” of Jesus Christ in Kingdom glory. (1 Corinthians 15:52; 2 Timothy 4:1, 8)]

    [5-1-90 WT p.26 par.9 – Martha knew about that hope from her association with Jesus, for she had previously said to him regarding Lazarus: “I know he will rise in the resurrection on the last day.” (John 11:24) She knew that the resurrection would be, not on his (Lazarus’) last day, but in the future, “on the last day”—Judgment Day, when the dead would be raised under God’s Kingdom rule.]

    [Insight Vol 2 – Because of having been resurrected by his friend Jesus, Lazarus was likely alive Pentecost 33 C.E., when the holy spirit was poured out and the first ones of the heavenly calling (Heb 3:1) were anointed and spirit begotten. (Ac 2:1-4, 33, 38)]

    [12-1-89 WT p.9 – The judgment will take place “in the last day,” during Christ’s Thousand Year Reign.]

    [4-1-82 WT p.23 par.13 – Consequently, the expression “come to life” must refer to the situation at the end of the 1,000-year-long Judgment Day.]

    [7-1-98 WT p.21 par.12 – That “last day coincides with the Thousand Year Reign of Christ. (Revelation 20:6) Imagine the excitement during that “day” when this grand event begins!]

  • Jorden
    Jorden

    Fisherman, when it comes to the trumpets the answer is YES, they are ALL blown in order and YES, the 42-months take place during the 6th trumpet/2nd woe. What this means is that trumpets 1-5 and the events associated with them will have to occur BEFORE trumpet 6 can blow. Likewise, BEFORE trumpet 7 can blow the events associated with trumpet 6/2nd woe have to occur and end BEFORE trumpet 7. This means that trumpet 7 has to blow AFTER the 42-months end.

    [Revelation 9:13 And the sixth angel blew his trumpet.]
    [Revelation 11:2 But as for the courtyard that is outside the temple sanctuary, cast it clear out and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations, and they will trample the holy city underfoot for forty-two months.]
    [Revelation 11:14 The second woe is past. Look! The third woe is coming quickly.]
    [Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel blew his trumpet.]

    Well now, according to WTS the 42-months were from Oct 1914 to April 1918. If that were true thou and that is when the 42-months were and since the 7th trumpet blows AFTER the 42-months/2nd woe ends then that means that the 7th trumpet blew in April 1918 at the earliest.

    It seems the WTS agrees:

    [7-15-51 WT- At this eventful time the seventh angel blows his trumpet, that is, after the 1,260 days ended in 1918. Then it is that these wonders can come to pass. “And the seventh angel blew his trumpet. And loud voices occurred in heaven saying: ‘The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will rule as king for ever and ever.’(Revelation 11:15)]

    Now you say, well that can't be because the WTS teaches that the 7th trumpet blew in Oct 1914.

    [11 -1- 02 WT – In 1914 the prophetic words of Revelation 11:15 were fulfilled: And the seventh angel blew his trumpet. And loud voices occurred in heaven, saying: “The kingdom of the world did become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will rule as king forever and ever.”]

    Ok so let's just say the 7th trumpet did blow in Oct 1914 even thou above they also said it blew in 1918. The fact that they say the 7th blew AFTER the 42-months ended is correct and shows that the trumpets blow in order. But that means that for the 7th to have blown in Oct 1914 then the 42-months would have to have occurred in April 1911 and ended in Oct 1914. But they don't teach that, no as I said they say those 42-months were Oct 1914 to April 1918.

    But according to a straight reading of the Scriptures and the 51 WT we know the 7th trumpet can't blow until AFTER the 42-months.

    So, to solve this dilemma you are to know what/when the 42 months are and what the 7th trumpet is announcing. This brings us back to speaking about Joel and the last day/1,000 years.

  • Jorden
    Jorden

    So why did I ask you if you/JW's believe the 1,000 years began in 1918...well because as I have shown is that the 'first resurrection' takes place on the 'last day', but because WTS teaches that the 'first resurrection' began in 1918 then that means that the 'last day' 1,000 years must have begun then and the 'last trumpet' must have sounded as well.

    [Could it, then, be reasoned that since Jesus was enthroned in the fall of 1914, the resurrection of his faithful anointed followers began three and a half years later, in the spring of 1918? w07 1/1 pp. 25-30 - The Watchtower—2007]

    But yet the WTS teaches that 'the last day coincides with the Thousand Year Reign of Christ.' So, since they teach that and since the 1,000-year reign is still yet to begin then that means no resurrection occurred in 1918. Saying the resurrection has occurred before it actually does is not a good thing according to Paul. This was happening in his day.

    [2 Timothy 2:18 These men have deviated from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already occurred, and they are subverting the faith of some.]

    2 Timothy 2 — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY (jw.org)

    [Hymenaeus and Philetus are among them: Paul mentions these two men as examples of apostates, whose teachings Timothy must reject. Hymenaeus and Philetus had deviated from the truth and were also damaging the faith of others by teaching falsehoods, claiming that the resurrection had already occurred.]

  • scholar
    scholar

    Anony Mous

    Well, then, here is an argument from the WTBTS own publications:

    Babylon fell"Babylon fell in 539 B.C." Babylon the Great Has Fallen - God's Kingdom Rules p.184539 B.C.
    Plus Nabonidus"On the basis of cuneiform texts he is believed to have ruled some seventeen years(556-539 B.C.E.)." Aid to Bible Understanding - Nabonidus p.119517 years
    Plus Labashi-Marduk"Labashi-Marduk ... was a vicious boy, and within nine months he had his throat cut by an assassin." Babylon the Great Has Fallen - God's Kingdom Rules p.1841 year
    Plus NeriglissarNeriglissar ... reigned four years Babylon the Great Has Fallen - God's Kingdom Rules p.1844 years
    Plus Evil-Merodach"After reigning but two years King Evil-Merodach was murdered" Babylon the Great Has Fallen - God's Kingdom Rules p.1842 years
    PlusNebuchadnezzar"Nebuchadnezzar ruled as king for 43 years" Insight on the Scriptures, Volume 2 p.48043 years
    Equals start of Nebuchadnezzar's reignCalculated by adding above figures606 B.C.
    MinusNebuchadnezzar's 19th year2 Kings 25:8-9 "And in the ... nineteenth year of King Neb·u·chad·nez´zar ... the servant of the king of Babylon, came to Jerusalem. And he proceeded to burn the house of Jehovah"19th year

    Date for Destruction

    ---

    The above list is all very well and good but what about the 70 years historic event that occurred during the NB Period?

    scholar JW

    Therefore calculated as: 587BCE

  • scholar
    scholar

    Jeffro

    This word salad in response to a ‘yes or no’ question is reminiscent of the dishonest answer given by Geoffrey Jackson at the Australian royal commissio

    --

    Which of the two 'word salads' is the better? The said scholar' or Geoffreys'?

    scholar JW

  • scholar
    scholar

    Anony Mous

    Before you say the scientific evidence is arguable, there are over 2000 documents from the time that set the dates for the first and second siege of Jerusalem by the Babylonians, including the destruction of the temple in the second siege. It sets this from both contemporary dating methods as well as astronomical evidence. One thing the Babylonians were good at was keeping track of things, basically a bunch of bureaucrats. If you follow the WTBTS calculations, the sieges and mobilizations of troops from Babylon would’ve had to start before Nebuchadnezzar even started ruling.

    --

    However, not one of those 2000 tablets mentions or refers to the biblical 70 years.

    scholar JW

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