Scholar and Fisherman

by Jorden 207 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Jorden

  I don’t think the New World Order theory is specious, it is a neo-Marxist idea and there are plenty of people that loudly admit they want to implement it. The good thing is that it’s nearly impossible to implement, look at the EU, once you have a body of people they start subdividing into groups, the EU experiment is on the edge of collapse, the UN has been ineffective for all but the first few years of its existence and even that (Nuremberg trials) were rather controversial and still not universally accepted, the UN effectively existed until the start of the Cold War, since then it has done nothing.

  Great fair statement.

  Ok you saying:
  

  the UN has been ineffective

  That is something that remains to be seen and why I posed my question that somebody does not want to answer. Anything said or judged in regard to the UN has to be viewed in its current state of power/or lack of.

  Let's use Trump as example. He wanted a full boarder wall. If he had the power and it was 100% up to him, he would have congress get together all the money needed, and the wall would have been built and be there now. But what happens is there are those that oppose it, and the money and approval is not given so no completed wall. He was dependent on others in order to get it done.

  I belonged to a HOA, and they were not taking care of the townhomes as they were supposed to. I knew what needed to be done and also knew they need to raise the fees to pay for it. If I had the power to just say do what I say needs to be done and they would have done it, then I would have done so. But unfortunately, I had to ask and hope that they agreed and then do it. Well, they didn't agree, and the work has not been done.

  Were Trump and I ineffective for not getting what we both wanted to have done?

  The purpose of the League was to say hey let's not have a 2nd war. Well, the support to the League wasn't there and WW2 happened. Was it the League's fault?

  It seems that there was concern about WW2 happening so agreement to support and keep in place the UN was decided in hopes of not having WW3. Look where we are at today, I am not talking about somebody like the guy that said May 11, 2011 was the rapture time, its not like I am saying someone like him is saying WW3 is coming. I am talking about a man that is head of the organization that was created for exactly this purpose to avoid WW3. If he is saying it, then what is the chances of it happening? If anything, he should be saying nothing to worry about this is what the UN is here for, don't worry there will never be WW3 as long as the UN exist.

  But instead, what is he saying, 'Hey we are walking right into WW3 eyes open, we need all nations to come together.'

  So, what does it mean if nations don't come together to the extent that he is asking? Will it mean that WW3 will happen? Will it be the UN's fault?

  You said:

  The good thing is that it’s nearly impossible to implement,

  What if WW3 does occur? If WW2 convinced the nations that they should have supported the League and so did so with the UN at that time, then will WW3 convince the nations that it was not enough to just have the UN around in its limited powerless role, that the world/nations truly need to be UNITED, screw this separate sovereignty.

  This is why I ask the simple question:

  What would become of the UN if WW3 does occur?
  
• 

  Person

  I think your reasoning is very logical Jorden. May I ask what in your opinion is Jerusalem that will be trampled for 42 months?
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  Jorden

  Jorden, you might be on to something.

  https://twitter.com/LibertyMutual8/status/1647127824199737346?s=20
  

  SHHH...people might think you are a conspiracy theorist. LOL!

  And how dare you send me a twitter link with those on there that are connecting Bible Scriptures from Revelation. That is superstition, don't you know?!

  Oh, wait maybe not. Here in the following (which I have already shown) we have a guy I refer to when speaking about the UN because he is a very big promoted of it. What is the clip about? Religion!

  So here we have; Ted Turner/UN/Religion.

  One World Religion - UN - YouTube

  Also, I am talking about WW3 and have shown that the UN chief says the world is heading there. Interesting thou, on that article page is where I saw the twitter clip of Zelenskyy saying that if Ukraine falls that it will be the start of WW3.

  So now, 23 mins ago on the AP we have this news about Zelenskyy meeting with Francis. How timely...LOL!

  So here we have; WW3/UN/Religion.

  Pope Francis says:

  A shift toward globalism is necessary, in order to fight climate change and other worldwide “threats.”
  “When a supranational common good is clearly identified, it is necessary to have a special authority legally and concordantly constituted capable of facilitating its implementation. We think of the great contemporary challenges of climate change, new forms of slavery and peace,”
  “an excessive demand for sovereignty on the part of States.”
  Our only hope for planetary peace and progress is to make room for “international organizations” to develop into governing bodies, supplanting the “state interests” with the will of the United Nations,

  The_Real_Fly on Twitter: "ZELENSKY: IF HIS REGIME LOSES WAR, THEN THE ENTIRE WORLD WILL GO TO WAR https://t.co/lhB9hw0SDn" / Twitter

  Zelenskyy meets Pope Francis at Vatican and seeks backing for Ukraine's peace plan | AP News

  [Revelation 19: 20 And the wild beast was caught, and along with it the false prophet that performed in front of it the signs with which he misled those who received the mark of the wild beast and those who render worship to its image. While still alive, they both were hurled into the fiery lake that burns with sulphur.]
  
  
  
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  Jorden

  May I ask what in your opinion is Jerusalem that will be trampled for 42 months?

  Are you asking who do I think Jerusalem represents or when that time is to be trampled?
  

  To my thinking the 42-months are the GT period, which would begin after/concurrent with the 'pangs of distress'.

  [Matthew 24:7“For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom,+ and there will be food shortages+and earthquakes in one place after another.+ 8 All these things are a beginning of pangs of distress.]

  [Matt 24:15 “Therefore, when you catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation, as spoken about by Daniel the prophet, standing in a holy place+ (let the reader use discernment), 16 then let those in Ju·deʹa begin fleeing to the mountains.+ 17 Let the man on the housetop not come down to take the goods out of his house, 18 and let the man in the field not return to pick up his outer garment. 19 Woe to the pregnant women and those nursing a baby in those days! 20 Keep praying that your flight may not occur in wintertime nor on the Sabbath day; 21 for then there will be great tribulation+ such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning until now, no, nor will occur again.+ 22 In fact, unless those days were cut short, no flesh would be saved; but on account of the chosen ones those days will be cut short.]

  [Luke 21: 20 “However, when you see Jerusalem surrounded by encamped armies, then know that the desolating of her has drawn near. 21 Then let those in Ju·deʹa begin fleeing to the mountains, let those in the midst of her leave, and let those in the countryside not enter into her, 22 because these are days for meting out justice in order that all the things written may be fulfilled. 23 Woe to the pregnant women and those nursing a baby in those days! For there will be great distress on the land and wrath against this people. 24 and they will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations, until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled.] [Revelation 11:2 But as for the courtyard that is outside the temple sanctuary, cast it clear out and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations, and they will trample the holy city underfoot for forty-two months.]
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  Jeffro

  Jorden:

  What if we put all that aside for the moment. Just focus on what the current UN chief said about heading into WW3 and he told all 193 member states "to wake up and realize thatsolidarity is the only way out of disaster."

  Jorden once again trots out the same tired examples of opinions of people who have no function or control over the UN, which of course are fallacious appeals to authority. He then falls back to a general statement from the UN chief who remarked about the importance of solidarity. Run for the hills! Someone said it’s good to cooperate instead of fighting! Of course, Jorden assigns more meaning to the statement than it actually contains, but if the UN chief had actually said that ‘solidarity’ means ‘replace all the governments with the UN’, Jorden would quote that instead. Of course, he said no such thing.

  It’s also worth noting that a key element of the conspiracy theory is that the imagined scheme is necessarily bad (or worse than the status quo), which is an example of black and white thinking. And no, that doesn’t mean I endorse the ‘new world order’.
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  Jeffro

  Person:

  May I ask what in your opinion is Jerusalem that will be trampled for 42 months?

  It was the period from 66-70, from the Roman response to the Jewish revolt until Jerusalem’s destruction. According to the gospels, Jesus said the ‘appointed times of the nations’ aka the ‘great tribulation’ would happen within a generation of his death, and then Jesus would return shortly after. Of course, Jesus didn’t return and Christians have been making excuses ever since, leading to nutters reinterpreting passages from Revelation to conveniently apply to ‘our time’.
  
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  Jorden

  once again trots out the same tired examples of opinions of people who have no function or control over the UN, which of course are fallacious appeals to authority.

  LOL! You don't think that George, Walter, Ted and the Pope have any function/control over the UN? How foolish are you? Do you even know what the UN is and how it works?

  We use the term the White House or Washington, or D.C., etc... and say they did this, or that, or past this law or that law, etc. But what really are those terms referring to? They are real people, congress/senators representing the 50 states of real people. And a president, a real person who also represents real people of the 50 states.

  What people are concerned about and whom they think will address those concerns are whom they will vote for in their state to be their senator, etc. Then based on the batch of senators you get is whom the president has to work with and so on. Like I gave an example earlier about Trump and the wall, because the batch of senators were whom they were, they did not vote to go along with him on the wall. Had he won and been in office now instead of Biden, the current batch would vote to go along with it and it would be done. And Biden won't call for the wall so it won't happen now either. Why don't them Dem's want the wall...why do they say build bridges not walls?

  Here is something from good'ole Ted:

  [The founder of the television network CNN, Ted Turner, comments about his work with a number of talented individuals from various nations: “Meeting with these people was an incredible experience. I came to see those from other countries not as ‘foreigners,’ but as fellow citizens of the planet. I began to view the word ‘foreign’ as pejorative and created a rule within CNN that the word could not be used either on air or in conversation around the office. Instead, the word ‘international’ was to be used.”]

  You don't think that the men I am using as example have any influence over people? What about Soros, Gates, Gore, etc. What about religious leaders, any influence over people? What about celebrities, any influence over people? (And when I say 'people' I mean the common voting 'people' but also the 'politicians themselves.')

  So, based on whom/what the influence is coming from, then 'people' vote in line with what they feel/think/want/concerned about. That in turn will dictate who gets in office and what they will vote for/approve/veto etc.

  Now as this applies to the UN. Saying UN is just like saying the White House. The UN is basically the White House and the Capitol but for Nations. Instead, of for 50 states it is for 193 countries, each having their representative. These representatives do exactly that, they represent what their country thinks/feels/believes, etc. Each countries 'people' in turn thinks/feels/believes based on what they are influenced by. That in turn dictates what batch of representatives are in the UN. The so-called UN does not have power on its own it exists and operates from the power and finances each country gives to it. This means that the UN can only 'function' and do what it seeks to do, if it is voted/approved by the member countries.

  If you listened to ALL of the video of Walter you would have heard him say that 'right winged senators' who are led by Pat Robertson , they fail to vote/approve certain things when it comes to the UN. What that means is that in this case these 'people/senators' are refraining from approving something in regard to the UN because of their thinking/beliefs influenced on them by Pat. If that is the case, then why can it not be that 'people/senators' that do vote to approve these very same things in regard to the UN, why can't it be said that they were influenced by Ted Turner or Bill Gates, etc.

  The point is that depending on what batch of senators are in office during a period of time and their view of the UN is to whether or not they vote to approve or not. And if it is a not then the UN representative for US would not vote up either. This is what controls what the UN can or not do.

  Walter is dead now, said that years ago. Many batches of senators have come and gone. George is dead too and Ted has Alzheimer's, he doesn't have a clue what's going on. But the influence to support or not the UN continues on from all directions. No different then to support a D or a R.
• 

  Person

  Ok Jorden thank you for saying when 42 months will occur. But my question was what in your opinion exactly is Jerusalem? Is Revelation 11:2 referring to literal city? Or is it like JW suggesting some form of God's organization located all over the world? Something else? When it comes to literal city it was already trampled in first century by Roman's as Jeffro said..
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  Fisherman

  It was the period from 66-70, from the Roman response to the Jewish revolt until Jerusalem’s destruction. According to the gospels, Jesus said the ‘appointed times of the nations’ aka the ‘great tribulation’ would happen within a generation of his death, and then Jesus would return shortly after. Of course, Jesus didn’t return and Christians have been making excuses ever since, leading to nutters reinterpreting passages from Revelation to conveniently apply to ‘our time’.
  

  Non-sequitur: first you say Jesus prophecy was fulfilled then you say Jesus failed to return. Your fallacious style.

  A heavenly Messianic kingdom cannot be trampled upon. Jesus was alluding to heavenly Jerusalem. The word trampled is a literary device. It is your fallacious style to first interpret Bible prophecy and then to attempt to invalidate the Bible and your interpretation of fulfilled prophecy with it. Ergo your interpretation cancels out and becomes invalid. If the Bible is not valid, prophecy is meaningless and your interpretation is also nonsense. Whereas, we have shown consistency.
  
  
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  Jeffro

  Fisherman:

  Non-sequitur: first you say Jesus prophecy was fulfilled then you say Jesus failed to return. Your fallacious style.

  Wow. 🤦‍♂️ You're really not good at this.

  I didn't say Jesus' prophecy was fulfilled, or that he made a prophecy. There is no evidence that Jesus' said anything attributed to him in the Bible. It is widely recognised by scholars that the gospels weren't written until after 70 CE, after the events in question (though parts of Mark may have been written a little earlier). The only part that was actually 'prophecy' was the expectation that Jesus would return. Which he didn't.

  But even if I had contradicted myself, which I didn't, that's not what a non sequitur is.

  A heavenly Messianic kingdom cannot be trampled upon. Jesus was alluding to heavenly Jerusalem.

  No, he wasn't. Luke 21:20-24 quite clearly identifies the city of Jerusalem on earth, not some esoteric 'heavenly Jerusalem', and the trampling of Jerusalem in Revelation 11:2 refers to the same event. The concept of 'heavenly Jerusalem' is mentioned later in Revelation, but only as a city that comes down out of heaven after literal Jerusalem was destroyed earlier. The Bible never mentions 'heavenly Jerusalem' being 'trampled'.

  Whereas, we have shown consistency.

  🤣 You can't even get the order of events of the great tribulation and Jesus' presence right. So... no.

  I suppose, JW eschatology is consistently wrong, so maybe you mean that.