Scholar and Fisherman

by Jorden 207 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Jorden
    Jorden
    Jesus reference to pointed stakes surrounding Jerusalem in prophecy was also an allusion to the first destruction. Also, 1914, the Parousia, The appointed times of the nations, the establishment of God’s kingdom in the heavens are all based on the date of the destruction of Jerusalem in BCE.

    Fisherman,

    In regard to parousia/presence this is directly connected to the first resurrection the gathering of the chosen ones to Jesus. That takes place AFTER the GT on the last day.

    [1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the presence of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. Then we the living who are surviving will, at the same time with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we shall always be with the Lord.]

    [1 Corinthians 15:52 in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we shall be changed.]

    [Matthew 24: 29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in lamentation, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send forth his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity.]

    [2-15-86 WT p.19 par.14 – It is understood that anointed Christians sleeping in death are raised at the sounding of “the last trumpet,” which takes place during the “manifestation” of Jesus Christ in Kingdom glory. (1 Corinthians 15:52; 2 Timothy 4:1, 8)]

    [Matthew 25:31“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.]

    [Matthew 16:27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.]

    [2 Thessalonians 1:6 For indeed it is righteous with God to repay those oppressing you with affliction, 7 and to grant relief to you who are oppressed and to us as well. This will take place when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels 8 in flaming fire, bringing judgment on those who don’t know God and on those who refuse to obey the Good News of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with eternal destruction, forever separated from the Lord and from his glorious power. 10 when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed]

    _______________

    In regard to pointed stakes and appointed times of the nations. First note what WTS says here:

    [3-15-61 WT– Isaiah 29:4 reads: “And you must become low so that you will speak from the very earth, and as from the dust your saying will sound low. And like a spirit medium your voice must become even from the earth, and from the dust your own saying will chirp.”… These words show that God’s earthly organization would come under attack and would be reduced to a very low state by the enemies of God’s kingdom. God’s people would be, as it were, crushed to the earth, at the time of Gog’s attack upon them, so that what utterance they made, what vocal sounds they made, would come up from low down in their abasement.]

    So, they say that this attack on Ariel is fulfilled with the future attack by Gog. That being the case let's look at the context in regard to Ariel.

    [Isaiah 29:2 I will bring distress on Ar´i·el, and there will be mourning and lamentation, and she must become to me as the altar hearth of God. 3 And I must encamp on all sides against you, and I must lay siege to you with a palisade and raise up against you siegeworks.]

    It is clear that Jehovah brings the distress on Ariel/his people. Likewise, Jehovah brings Gog on his people.

    [Ezekiel 38:16 And you will be bound to come up against my people Israel, like clouds to cover the land. In the final part of the days it will occur, and I shall certainly bring you against my land,]

    [1-15-04 WT p.20 par.19 – As foretold in Ezekiel chapter 38, Satan will soon complete his role as “Gog of the land of Magog.” This will involve a worldwide attack on Jehovah’s people.]

    Well at this point I don't need to convince you that the WTS says that Gog attacks Jehovah's people in the future and they say that the attack on Ariel is the same account. I also don't need to convince that Jehovah is the one that brings this upon his people. What about the GT, you know that is still future, but did you know the GT is Gog's attack? Did you know that the Northerner/locust attack on Jehovah's people in Joel's account is the same as Gog's attack? Did you know that these attacks are the true time of the 42-months/appointed times of the nations? Did you know that is when the 6th trumpet/2nd woe will be being fulfilled and then AFTER the 7th trumpet will blow? These 42-months are the last period of Satan's world and lead right into God's kingdom.

    [Isaiah 29:2 I will bring distress on Ar´i·el, and there will be mourning and lamentation, and she must become to me as the altar hearth of God. 3 And I must encamp on all sides against you, and I must lay siege to you with a palisade and raise up against you siegeworks.]

    [Luke 19:43 Because the days will come upon you when your enemies will build around you a fortification with pointed stakes and will encircle you and distress you from every side, 44 and they will dash you and your children within you to the ground, and they will not leave a stone upon a stone in you, because you did not discern the time of your being inspected.”]

    [Luke 21: 20 “However, when you see Jerusalem surrounded by encamped armies, then know that the desolating of her has drawn near. 21 Then let those in Ju·deʹa begin fleeing to the mountains, let those in the midst of her leave, and let those in the countryside not enter into her, 22 because these are days for meting out justice in order that all the things written may be fulfilled. 23 Woe to the pregnant women and those nursing a baby in those days! For there will be great distress on the land and wrath against this people. 24 and they will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations, until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled.]

    [Revelation 11:2 But as for the courtyard that is outside the temple sanctuary, cast it clear out and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations, and they will trample the holy city underfoot for forty-two months.]

    [Joel 2: 17 “Between the porch and the altar let the priests, the ministers of Jehovah, weep and say, ‘Do feel sorry, O Jehovah, for your people, and do not make your inheritance a reproach, for nations to rule over them. Why should they say among the peoples: “Where is their God?”’]

    [1-15-04 WT p.20 par.19 – As foretold in Ezekiel chapter 38, Satan will soon complete his role as “Gog of the land of Magog.” This will involve a worldwide attack on Jehovah’s people. It will be an all-out attempt on the part of Satan to break the integrity of God’s loyal ones. As never before, worshipers of Jehovah will need to call upon him earnestly, even crying for help.]

    [Joel 1:14 Proclaim a fast; call for a solemn assembly. Gather the elders together, with all the inhabitants of the land, To the house of Jehovah your God, and cry to Jehovah for help.]

    [6-1-81 WT p.30 – Joel 3 2-16, 19 It tells us why Jehovah is angry with the nations—because of the way they have treated his servants. They scattered them among the nations, making slaves of them. Also, they robbed Jehovah’s temple of its gold, silver and other desirable things, and brought these into their own temples.]

    [Ezekiel 38:13 Is it to do much plundering that you have congregated your congregation, in order to carry off silver and gold, to take wealth and property, to get a very great spoil?”’]

    [w89 3/15 p. 31 - Judgment Upon the Nations Jehovah will save his faithful people when he executes judgment upon the nations. (Compare Ezekiel 38:18-23; Revelation 16:14-16.) Tyre, Sidon, and Philistia must pay for mistreating God’s people and selling them into slavery. Jehovah will bring back the captives of Judah and Jerusalem, and he challenges his foes, saying: “Sanctify war!” But they are no match for God, who executes judgment upon them in the symbolic “low plain of Jehoshaphat.” Though heaven and earth will rock, Jehovah will be a refuge for his people. The faithful will survive the judgment upon the nations and will enjoy life under paradisaic conditions.​—3:1-21.]

    [Joel 2: 17 “Between the porch and the altar let the priests, the ministers of Jehovah, weep and say, ‘Do feel sorry, O Jehovah, for your people, and do not make your inheritance a reproach, for nations to rule over them. Why should they say among the peoples: “Where is their God?”’] [Joel 3:1 “For, look! in those days and in that time, when I shall bring back the captive ones of Judah and Jerusalem, 2 I will also collect together all the nations and bring them down to the low plain of Je·hoshʹa·phat; and I will put myself on judgment with them there on account of my people and my inheritance Israel, whom they scattered among the nations; and they apportioned out my own land.]

  • scholar
    scholar

    Jorden

    Boy, you quote lotta scripture!!!

    scholar JW

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro

    Yeah, don’t bother poor ‘scholar’ with what the Bible actually says. That’s not the JW way. 😂

  • Jorden
    Jorden
    Boy, you quote lotta scripture!!!

    Yes, Scholar that is true and if you spent half the time you do on concerning yourself with the dates, then you would actually have some knowledge to what the Scripture's state and you would realize that it does not matter 607/587 because the appointment times of the nations are not from 607 to 1914...they are the last 42-months of Satan's world that the 8th king will rule over God's people. When those 42-months/appointed times end, Jesus will come with God's kingdom and put and end to Satan's world/kingdom. That is when the 7th trumpet will sound and God's kingdom will begin to rule with Jesus and his chosen that will at that time be gathered to him to rule for the 1,000 years.

    [Revelation 13:5 And a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies was given it (wild beast), and authority to act forty-two months was given it. 6 And it opened its mouth in blasphemies against God, to blaspheme his name and his residence, even those residing in heaven. 7 And there was granted it to wage war with the holy ones and conquer them, and authority was given it over every tribe and people and tongue and nation.]

    [Luke 21: 23 Woe to the pregnant women and those nursing a baby in those days! For there will be great distress on the land and wrath against this people. 24 and they will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations, until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled.]

    [Revelation 11:2 But as for the courtyard that is outside the temple sanctuary, cast it clear out and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations, and they will trample the holy city underfoot for forty-two months.]

    [Joel 2: 17 “Between the porch and the altar let the priests, the ministers of Jehovah, weep and say, ‘Do feel sorry, O Jehovah, for your people, and do not make your inheritance a reproach, for nations to rule over them. Why should they say among the peoples: “Where is their God?”’]

    ________
    [1-15- 14 WT – IN THE spring of the year 31 on a mountain close to the town of Capernaum, Jesus Christ taught his followers to pray: “Let your Kingdom come.” (Matthew 6:10) Today, many doubt if the Kingdom will ever come. However, we are confident that Jehovah will answer our prayers for his Kingdom to come.] (Notice that was said in 2014, 100 years AFTER 1914 and yet it is said they are still praying for God's kingdom to come. That neans that the 'has become' in verse 15 was not so in 1914 or ever since, but it will be in the future when Jesus comes AFTER the GT as stated at Matt 24:29.30.)

    [11-15-55 WT -. …Satan’s kingdom ends completely at Armageddon.]

    [9-1-91 WT – Almighty God has set a time limit to Satan’s activity among mankind. When that time limit arrives, destruction will come upon the world lying in Satan’s power.]

    [Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel blew his trumpet. And loud voices occurred in heaven, saying: “The kingdom of the world (Satan’s) has become the kingdom of our Lord (JEHOVAH) and of his Christ (JESUS)”]

  • Fisherman
    Fisherman
    you have been conditioned to only form your beliefs based on what the Watch Tower Society says.

    No I haven’t. They’ve been freeing scores of people out jail convicted with evidence. Besides, your logic is colored (against wt.) Mine isn’t. Im here. I remember back in the 70’s a new your times article exposing scientific fraud: fake fossils. Also, you confuse evidence with interpretation. For example 586 587 588 is derived not proven with direct evidence such as 539 the fall of Bavel is a historical fact. Show evidence not conclusions from the evidence. There is no evidence that I’ve seen that proves the date of Jerusalem destruction only interpretation and extrapolation and arguments and explanations.

    Name dropping some other works doesn’t change that

    Not name dropping. I’ve studied. And I concur with WT. And it does change that because it proves I’ve studied other schools of thought.

    You have thoroughly demonstrated that you reject factual material that isn’t consistent with JW dogma.

    No I havent.

    You’ve hijacked this thread as usual you go off into tangents. Why can’t you show the info I requested in the other thread.

    Also, what I conclude is immaterial to the weight of any evidence.

    I am interested in evidence which is verifiable: Such as the common denominator for Nebu’s 18th and 37th year. I an not interested is responding to your views about me anymore. Believe what you like. Evidence I am interested in seeing. You are dismissed.

  • scholar
    scholar

    Jeffro

    Yeah, don’t bother poor ‘scholar’ with what the Bible actually says. That’s not the JW way.

    --

    Yeah, don't bother with poor Jeffro with what the Bible says because he does not believe in the Bible.

    scholar JW

  • scholar
    scholar

    Jorden

    Yes, Scholar that is true and if you spent half the time you do on concerning yourself with the dates, then you would actually have some knowledge to what the Scripture's state and you would realize that it does not matter 607/587 because the appointment times of the nations are not from 607 to 1914...they are the last 42-months of Satan's world that the 8th king will rule over God's people. When those 42-months/appointed times end, Jesus will come with God's kingdom and put and end to Satan's world/kingdom. That is when the 7th trumpet will sound and God's kingdom will begin to rule with Jesus and his chosen that will at that time be gathered to him to rule for the 1,000 years.

    --

    What utter nonsense for the 'appointed times of the nations' or the Gentile Times is the time period from the Fall of Jerusalem in 607 BCE until the 1914 CE -enthronement of God's Kingdom and Christ's Parousia as recognized by Bible expositors and in harmony with Biblical Theology.

    scholar JW

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro

    ‘scholar’:

    Yeah, don't bother with poor Jeffro with what the Bible says because he does not believe in the Bible.

    An irrelevant and ultimately pointless ad hominem attack (specifically, an attempt at ‘poisoning the well’). What a surprise. 🤦‍♂️ But it isn’t necessary to hold any religious superstitions about the Bible in order to consider what it actually says.

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro

    ‘scholar’:

    What utter nonsense for the 'appointed times of the nations' or the Gentile Times is the time period from the Fall of Jerusalem in 607 BCE until the 1914 CE -enthronement of God's Kingdom and Christ's Parousia as recognized by Bible expositors and in harmony with Biblical Theology.

    Wrong as usual. Whilst Jorden incorporates some religious superstitions into his interpretation, he correctly identified that the ‘appointed times of the nations’ is directly described in revelation as a period of ‘42 months’, as well as the fact that Matthew directly states that Jesus presence occurs after the tribulation.

  • Jorden
    Jorden
    for the 'appointed times of the nations' or the Gentile Times is the time period from the Fall of Jerusalem in 607 BCE until the 1914 CE

    Scholar, I have shown from the 'lotta scripture' I quote that that is not true. But it is ok that you still say that at this point but only now you can't just make that statement, you now have to explain/defend how what you believe is correct against what I shown to be.

    Let's say for the moment I give you a pass on saying the 'appointed times of the nations' mentioned in Luke are indeed 2,520 years and go from 607 to 1914.

    [Luke 21: 24 and they will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations, until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled.] (2,520 years and go from 607 to 1914)

    ______

    Ok, with that noted tell me when these 42-months that occur during the 6th trumpet/2nd woe, tell me when they take place???

    [Revelation 9:13 And the sixth angel blew his trumpet.]
    [Revelation 11:2 But as for the courtyard that is outside the temple sanctuary, cast it clear out and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations, and they will trample the holy city underfoot for forty-two months.]
    [Revelation 11:14 The second woe is past. Look! The third woe is coming quickly.]
    [Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel blew his trumpet.]

    _______

    Tell me when these 42-months take place???

    [Revelation 13:5 And a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies was given it (wild beast), and authority to act forty-two months was given it. 6 And it opened its mouth in blasphemies against God, to blaspheme his name and his residence, even those residing in heaven. 7 And there was granted it to wage war with the holy ones and conquer them, and authority was given it over every tribe and people and tongue and nation.]

    ________

    Lastly, tell me when does it take place that the nations rule over Jehovah's people as mentioned in Joel's account???

    [Joel 2: 17 “Between the porch and the altar let the priests, the ministers of Jehovah, weep and say, ‘Do feel sorry, O Jehovah, for your people, and do not make your inheritance a reproach, for nations to rule over them. Why should they say among the peoples: “Where is their God?”’]

    Keep in mind here that Jehovah recues his said people from this time period of being captive/ruled over. So, again tell me when does it take place that the nations rule over Jehovah's people as mentioned in Joel's account???

    [Joel 3:1 “For, look! in those days and in that time, when I shall bring back the captive ones of Judah and Jerusalem, 2 I will also collect together all the nations and bring them down to the low plain of Je·hoshʹa·phat; and I will put myself on judgment with them there on account of my people and my inheritance Israel, whom they scattered among the nations; and they apportioned out my own land.]

    [w89 3/15 p. 31 - Judgment Upon the Nations Jehovah will save his faithful people when he executes judgment upon the nations. (Compare Ezekiel 38:18-23; Revelation 16:14-16.) Tyre, Sidon, and Philistia must pay for mistreating God’s people and selling them into slavery. Jehovah will bring back the captives of Judah and Jerusalem, and he challenges his foes, saying: “Sanctify war!” But they are no match for God, who executes judgment upon them in the symbolic “low plain of Jehoshaphat.” Though heaven and earth will rock, Jehovah will be a refuge for his people. The faithful will survive the judgment upon the nations and will enjoy life under paradisaic conditions.​—3:1-21.]

    [6-1-81 WT – We come now to part three, dealing with judgment and execution. (Joel 3:2-16, 19) It tells us why Jehovah is angry with the nations​—because of the way they have treated his servants. They scattered them among the nations, making slaves of them.]

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