Is the "War on Terror" wrong? Why?

by 2escaped lifers 125 Replies latest members adult

  • patio34
    patio34

    Just a couple of points.

    "The best way to fight terrorism is to stop participating in it" (or the 1st thing to do) -- Noam Chomsky

    The Patriot Act is very threatening. I don't know what y'all read, but read anything! Whole states and cities have refused to enforce some of it. Do you REALLY want your reading material scrutinized by the government. Bendrr said he has nothing to hide, but what if you piss off the wrong people?? do you really want them to not have to get a warrant from a judge?? Taking the courts out of the picture??

    We don't need to give up our civil liberties, do we?

    Pat

  • Jayson
    Jayson

    Don't even the leftist polls show that the ultra majority of Americans support the Patriot Act? In fact don't they want it stronger not weaker? I agree with Mike where is this loss of our civil liberties?

  • Phantom Stranger
    Phantom Stranger

    Hey, BS, I am sorry that I didn't keep the paragraphs short - my bad. Of course, I never called it "precise" or "succinct", in fact, I apologized about the length right away at the beginning. I'm sorry you still feel the need to complain.

    I figured that if I gave just my opinion, it would be one among many. I wanted to provide some facts - I was sure that some wouldn't feel a need to read it.

    Apparently the last half of my last post was the part you agreed with - since you basically said the same thing that I did... the two statements below just don't seem that far apart to me...

    "During times of war and otherwise special circumstances (as in the unprovoked attack upon thousands of US citizens), I can certainly appreciate a modification of normal business as usual processes when it comes to travel. "

    "I agree with the idea that the Constitution is not a suicide pact. Our US elected representatives voted in the Patriot Act - it's the law of the land. That stipulated, I can still disagree about how it's to be done in the future, and try to figure out how a fairly hastily-assembled piece of legislation is improved - because we all want it improved, right?"

    The fact is, I never said that practices shouldn't have been modified - I said that we can improve the current solution to be more effective and still preserve more civil liberties. I still believe that. You can criticize my writing style, the size of my post, or characterize my argument as a zero-sum black-and-white either-or proposition - but it's not relevant to the argument made above. Is your position to trust the government to know what's best for us? We are the government, last time I checked - it rules with "the consent of the governed", and I'm one of the governed, and my consent is a bit conditional at the moment.

    "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

    Is privacy essential? According to the Supreme Court in various instances, privacy is a pretty big deal. This country was founded in part on the idea that unreasonable searches should be illegal.

    I resent being made out to be in favor of terrorists killing Americans rather than having my bags searched at an airport. I've never said word one about air travel, and I think the binary-solution thinking is in the way of real progress.

    I will see all your writings in a few weeks, I am out of town, take care and best wishes to all,

    PS

  • SanFranciscoJim
    SanFranciscoJim
    Don't even the leftist polls show that the ultra majority of Americans support the Patriot Act? In fact don't they want it stronger not weaker?

    Jayson, go to any search engine such as Google or Yahoo and type in the words "patriot act poll results". You will see that in virtually all polls, participants are against the implementation of the Patriot Act by a margin of as much as 2 to 1. This includes such conservative areas as Hampton Roads, Virginia.

  • Yerusalyim
    Yerusalyim

    All the polls I've seen said the US citizenry solidly supports the US Patriot Act..

    Another cool thing, Zogby just did a poll in Iraq..almost 70% think the country will be doing better in the next 5 years...there's not been that kind of hope in Iraq for 25 years.

    http://www.zogby.com/news/ReadNews.dbm?ID=734

    Even more interesting is this article found on the Zogby site

    The Iraqis want the US to stay...and 98% don't like Bin Laden.

    http://www.zogby.com/Soundbites/ReadClips.dbm?ID=5821


    Our Opinion - Reality in Iraq

    Over in the Letters section today is one from Private Matison crown, a U.S. Army paratrooper now serving in Iraq. We don't know where Private Brown is from, specifically, which violates one of our letter-acceptance rules. It also violates, we think, another rule, which is that we don't normally publish letters from writers who live outside our circulation area.

    We made the exception for Private Brown for a couple of reasons, one of them having to do with a Wall Street Journal op-ed piece in that paper Wednesday.

    The piece, "What Iraqis Really Think," was written by Karl Zinsmeister, editor in chief of The American Enterprise Institute, and had to do with a poll recently completed by the Institute in cooperation with Zogby International survey researchers.

    Completed in August, it is the first scientific poll of the Iraqi public, and it puts the lie to most of the news coverage of the war. That coverage, you'll no doubt have noticed, paints an unremittingly bleak picture of how we're doing in Iraq.

    Mr. Zinsmeister says as much in introducing the results of the poll. "We've all been at the mercy of images presented to us by the press," he notes. "We all know that journalists have a bad-news bias: 10,000 schools being rehabbed isn't news; one school blowing up is a weeklong feeding frenzy."

    He's right. When's the last time you saw a story on TV or read one in a newspaper that presents anything but a doomsday view of how our troops are doing and what the Iraqis think of us? Can't remember, can you?

    Anyway, the poll, which Zinsmeister says was, although "limited in scope ... reflects a nationally representative sample of Iraqi views, as captured in four disparate cities." Among those cities was Kirkuk, where Private Brown is stationed.

    Among the poll's findings? Seven of 10 Iraqis say they expect their country and their personal lives will be better five years from now, and 32 percent say they will become much better. Asked to name one country they would most like Iraq to models its new government on (they were given five options: Syria, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Egypt, or the U.S.), 37 percent chose ... yep, the United States. Saudi Arabia was second at 28 percent.

    Some 57 percent of Iraqis have an unfavorable of Osama bin Laden ... 41 percent say very unfavorable.

    And finally, they were asked how long they would like to see American and British forces remain in their country (remember, the national news media harps constantly that the Iraqis want us out immediately). The answer? Two thirds urged that the coalition troops should stick around for at least another year.

    All of this, of course, confirms what our paratrooper has to say, that the Iraqis are generally friendly and thankful for the military's presence, treat them warmly, and are more than a little grateful to have seen the end of the Saddam regime.

    Given the poll's results, one would think that those from the Left who have been so venomously critical of the United States effort — we include most of the press who covered and are covering the news in Iraq — would start trying to bring at least a semblance of balance to what Americans are hearing, seeing and reading.

    But, obviously, their aim is not to provide balance and a fair picture, but to attack President Bush's anti-terrorist actions and policies in the hope that by November of 2004 a majority of voters will opt for change.

    Somehow, we have the feeling that a bunch of those voters — Private Brown and his fellow soldiers among them — will choose to stay the course. That's because what they see and understand about Iraq hasn't first passed through the media's anti-liberty filter.

    (9/14/2003)
    - By Steve Williams, Desert Dispatch, Victorville Daily Press

  • SanFranciscoJim
    SanFranciscoJim

    According to the Newhouse News Service, "In a national survey March 28, pollster John Zogby found 55 percent in favor of allowing police to search their purses, handbags, backpacks or packages at random anywhere, while 48 percent would allow their cars to be searched, 36 percent would allow their mail to be searched and 26 percent said they would not object to having telephone conversations monitored by authorities."
    That doesn't sound like an overwhelming majority in favor of government surveillance under the Patriot Act to me.

  • patio34
    patio34

    As far as a "war on terror" (please forgive me if i duplicate another's post), it seems to be an inaccurate phrase (among many others) coined by the president for an unending aggressive war wherever he determines. Iraq, it's been demonstrated, was not involved in terror. Although it seems Iraq may now turn into it due to what the US/UK did. Irony, huh?

    But I think i understand why a military person would think the way they do. They are drilled in following orders and not questioning their superiors. This attitude is necessary in order to carry on warfare.

    I also understand why such a person would voluntarily give up many of their freedoms and try to get others to do the same as if it were normal and rational.

    but most of the voting public is in a different position and we'll see in the election how many people actually support giving up their freedoms. I know i have my fingers crossed, so to speak, for a new president.

    All the best,

    Pat

  • Jayson
    Jayson

    You are right Pat. We will see. Problem is both parties endorse it.

    Jim before I comment I want you to know I am so sorry for what happen to you guys on vacation. I can see where you have a very different perspective. I believe that you were a victim of revenge more so than the Patriot Act. There is a lot of press about America pulling out of Kyoto and Canada having to lax of border inforcement coming into America. I don't think what happend to you is right. And that goes to my point. There has to be accountability to prevent this awsome powers of Government from being misused. And I don't know the exact answer. When abuse of power happens it will have to be challenged in court. With disposable cell phones and internet traffic ect. laws need to be updated to keep up with technology. My big fear is manageralism getting out of control. But that might be another thread.

    Here is a snip [link] out of Phantom's essay.

    Justice officials yesterday drew attention to a CNN/USA Today/Gallup poll finding that only 22 percent of Americans thought the administration had gone "too far" in restricting civil liberties.
    What the stats you are talking about are would you support the "violating of civil liberties." That is why the question is where are the violated?

    What 2/3 of the people in the polls will not go for is the willful and intentional violation of Civil Liberties. That is why the question is asked "where are the violated?"

    I also think it is unfair for people to say that Yeru is "a military person would think the way they do. They are drilled in following orders and not questioning their superiors." I think he is simply in support of the current administration and the war that we are in. He also is very tactful in how he presents himself when opposed, much more so than me. Anyway, I just thought it mean to dismiss his voice that way. If anything as a soldier he has more respect and not less from me.

  • SanFranciscoJim
    SanFranciscoJim
    When abuse of power happens it will have to be challenged in court.

    Jayson, thank you for your kind words regarding our mistreatment at the border. It has been a harrowing experience for both of us. I am exploring the possibility of taking this matter to court once our home is sold. Full disclosure should have been made to us regarding the possibility of being turned away at the border before the purchase was transacted. I want to see disclosure laws put in place requiring real estate agencies, attornies, and government officials telling potential vacation homeowners of this possibility. One month before we began our drive across North America, we flew to Canada and spent an hour in the Canada Customs/Immigration office discussing our home purchase and plans to vacation there. We even shipped our furniture from our California apartment to our new home there. It cost us over $5000.00 to retrieve our personal belongings from Canada. At no time did the agent we spoke to up there tell us of a potential for being turned away. I have been approached by the media to go public with our story. I have asked them to wait until we can sell the house. I have since found quite a few other people this has happened to, including one elderly couple who were turned away simply because their RV had Texas license plates, and the NCIC database showed he had applied for a gun permit. Tell me that's not political!

    While I agree that the US needs to ensure the public safety through stronger measures than were being taken before September 11, my fear is that the Patriot Act may be left up to the interpretation of individuals within various branches of government assigned to its enforcement. Suspicion can be a double-edged sword. It can alert an enforcement agency to a potential problem, but it can also severely disrupt the lives of innocent persons. Remember Richard Jewell, the poor man who was suspected of the Olympic Park bombing in Atlanta in 1996?

    The Patriot Act is not the only legislation which is subject to misinterpretation. Consider CAPPS II, the government's plan to screen all domestic airline passengers. While I have no problem with the screening of luggage, or even my person (when I have been called out of line for an extended baggage and body search, I always make it a point to thank the officers for their dilligence, because it gives me a greater sense of security before boarding the flight), I do have a problem with airlines datamining individuals for a determination of whether they have a "right" to fly. Since my partner is banned from Canada, and I have been "red flagged", I am wondering if CAPPS II will restrict us from taking commercial domestic flights in the months to come? Furthermore, we do not know the datamining techniques currently being used by airline employees, and I forsee a potential for the development of a ring of identity thieves, and I do not want to be their next victim. There is an interesting editorial in yesterday's St. Petersburg Times at: http://www.sptimes.com/2003/09/15/Opinion/Traveling_suspects.shtml regarding the implementation of CAPPS II. If this program is not withdrawn, I can assure you that I will try to find alternative means of travel, as will many thousands of others. This will do nothing to improve airline safety, IMHO, and only put further strain on the airline industry.

    You see, I am not afraid of the government "spying" into my life. What I am afraid of is what will be done with this information once it is harvested? Mistrust is a two-way street.

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    Hi Hamas, nice of you to have an opinion for me... I've decided you like Rassberry (sic) ice-cream, is that okay?

    ;-)

    Actually, if we define War on Terrorism ® (from the people who bought you that long running and succesful (ha!) favourite War on Drugs ®) first, it's gonna help.

    I can't see anything about the Invasion of Iraq that would bring about a substansive reduction in risk of terrorist attack.

    I'm sure the Republican Male Voice CHior will disagree, and when you do guys, please give specific examples how it reduces terrorism.

    It brought down a currupt and violent reigeme, right enough, but two years on we still have no direct evidence that any attack on Iraq was justified on the grouds of a 'War on Terrorism' per se.

    Yeru;

    People here just don't seem to realize...the world has CHANGED. 9-11 Made EVERYTHING different.

    The events that lead to 9/11 didn't just magically appear on the 9/10. They were in place for years or decades beforehand.

    All sorts of events could have meant that the attack never happened, even if you exclude any possible intervention by Western Intelligence agencies.

    Osama might not have been trained by the USA and never amounted to anything.

    Saudi could have had a reform of government that either seculairised the country, or turned it into a rich sectarian hellhole, instead of expelling the worst pus from the country to try and keep simmering discontent (mainly caused by large young population with an education and no suitable work, or hope of suitable work) under control.

    The Pakistani government could have lain on its face and passed the vaseline to fundamentalists slightly less often.

    The US could have pursued a foreign policy that didn't alienate and offend most of the Arab world by showing a consistant bias towards Israel. 9/11 only made things different because it made Americans feel pain and become aware of what was going on around them.

    Othr major powers could have foreseen it was going to blow up in their faces, and that part of the reason it was going to blow up was their foreign policy.

    9/11 didn;t just happen, anymore than a bowling ball springs into existence as it strikes the pins. 9/11 was roilling down the alley for years before it hit the pins, and most if not all Western countries stuck their head in the sand. Funny thing about being World Leaders; you have to lead.

    ... providing protection to Bin Ladin...having the opportunity to hand him over to the US and not doing it...

    ... what, like Bahrain? Allegedly. I mean, one intelligence agency says Al-Q got aid from Iraq, and it is accepted by those in favour of the War on Iraq as a singlr point of evidnece justifying an invasion (which hasn't yet achieved its aims of making WoMDs safe as it can't find them, and is quietly goin to hell in a handbasket), so on the same basis the French intelligence reports that someone in the CIA met Bin-Ladin a few months before 9/11 in a hospital in Bahrain must be equally true...

    Please do some research on international affair before you make 9/11 sound like the end of an epoch. Just as the bullet in Sarajevo was a sign of the historical events that had lead up towards it and a convenient historical book mark to the start of WW1, so to is 9/11 just a sign of the events that had lead up towards it and a marking point for the begining of a series of actions.

    The stuff in this thread on MaCarthy is hilarious; it's a bit like saying 'Yeah, I'm sure they burned SOME real witches in the Middle Ages, so it's okay'. But the Cold War was won by the USA spending the USSR into the ground, no more, no less.

    Jayson;

    How's it going man? Haven't seen you around for a while... re. polls, here's one;

    http://www.gallup.com/poll/releases/pr030909.asp

    Seems that only 20% or so feel thing shave gone too far, but the graphic shows that people are now NOT willing to accept comprimise of their civil rights. whereas closer to 9/11 they were. Given the widespread ignorance about the detail of the act, it would seem many people WOULD be opposed if they knew more; this is bourne out by the fact those who know it the best oppose it most.

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