Is the "War on Terror" wrong? Why?

by 2escaped lifers 125 Replies latest members adult

  • blacksheep
    blacksheep

    "Again, in what ways have any of your personal freedoms been curtailed since 9-11...and how many lives are your personal freedoms worth?"

    Well, maybe for the rank and file of us our freedoms have been curtailed. But, it's a sad state of affairs indeed when multi-million dollar celebrities cannot say they hate their president and at home and abroad vehemently oppose our countries' actions without having someone disagree with them, and actually boycott their entertainment products.

    Sad, scary situation indeed.

  • Jayson
    Jayson

    Phantom a lot has gone on for quite some time. I have another aka "Iwasyoungonce" there is a very soft side to me. Yes much of what I say to some people comes accross as harsh. Some of these people have threated saying "we are at war now dude you had better not bring a knife to this gun fight" and they are still here. Others say they are going to "kick your head in" and then they all say they are the victim. These threats are basicly ignored as is their claiming they are the ones being bullied. They get support for it. The problem is that all the moderators are so far left that their bias is beyond their understanding. They say if you don't like it here than leave. How JW'sh of them. It does not bother me to point out what they are doing. I have gotten a lot of mail that says "thanks" and truth is if more people challenged percieved power inside the cult it would change real fast. This site is a hill of beans compaired to the Tower in effecting lives but lots of lurkers need to get a backbone. This mentality of not looking at all sources but pretending that you do is the real long lasting power of the JW disease. If people can't stand up here then how in the hell are they insperation to those in the borg? Things like what Simon said on the "Patriot" thread are unacceptable. He appologized to Yeru so it is a mute issue now. But, when the thread went up that was not the case. I also said that 9/11 is not just an American issue. This opens the door that there is more than just the American point of view. But nope, 9/11 is just an American thing & America is the cause of all problems in the world. No matter what facts are provided the twisted mind curves it back to "blame the US." I gave lots of great sources as opposed to barbs and media spin but they were all ignored. Those "others" have no interests in anything that does not feed their bias. But hey you are new so here is the newest book I plan to get "Longitudes and Attitudes" by Tom Frieman. This guy is a columinist for the NY times and created the documentary "The Roots of 9/11." I highly recommend this program, i pleaded with people to take the time to watch it, this to all sides of this debate. Not that one person here has probably bothered to look it up.

  • blacksheep
    blacksheep

    Correction: first sentence in last response should have said the rank & file person's freedoms, etc., *hadn't* been curtailed.

  • blacksheep
    blacksheep

    "A Gore commission in 1996 reccommended that the doors to the pilots compartment be locked. The Airlines didn't do anything about that. After 9-11 the airlines finally complied. Other than that we aren't one bit safer because of Bush's so called war on terrorism.

    The USA is most assuredly going to get hit again. It's not a matter of IF its a matter of WHEN."

    Name a single terror Islamofascist terror event that's happened on US soil (or on US planes)since 9/11 . Actually, there have been several terrorist plots that have been uncovered and prevented since 9/11. Exactly how are you assessing that we are no safer after 9/11?

  • Phantom Stranger
    Phantom Stranger

    How have my freedoms been curtailed? (apologies, this is a long one...)

    Here's a link to the Patriot Act - it's 300 pages. No spin, just the text of the law. http://www.eff.org/Privacy/Surveillance/Terrorism_militias/hr3162.php

    Below is a review of particular sections of the Patriot Act. I cribbed the highlights from a four-part article in Slate, here: http://slate.msn.com/id/2087984/

    Section 215 modifies the rules on records searches. Post-Patriot Act, third-party holders of your financial, library, travel, video rental, phone, medical, church, synagogue, and mosque records can be searched without your knowledge or consent, providing the government says it's trying to protect against terrorism. Would you know if Section 215 had been used on you? Nope. The person made to turn over the records is gagged and cannot disclose the search to anyone. 215 does extend FBI power to conduct essentially warrantless records searches, especially on people who are not themselves terror suspects, with little or no judicial oversight. The government sees this as an incremental change in the law, but the lack of meaningful judicial oversight and expanded scope of possible suspects is pretty dramatic.

    Section 218 amends the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, a "bargain" struck in 1978 wherein the usual requirements for a police search—probable cause to believe a criminal act had occurred and a warrant—would be unnecessary in a teeny, tiny number of cases. That teeny, tiny number of cases just expanded dramatically.Secret searches can now be authorized by a secret court without public knowledge or Department of Justice accountability, so long as the government can allege there is any foreign intelligence basis for the search. Would you know if Section 218 had been used on you? Only if you were later prosecuted using information gathered pursuant to a FISA warrant. Then you'd have the opportunity to try to suppress that evidence in a regular court proceeding.

    Section 213 is another extremely controversial part of the Patriot Act, engendering protest from across the political spectrum. By allowing the state to rummage first and let you know later (sometimes much later), the act upends the traditional requirement that the state advise you in advance that you are being searched. "Sneak and Peek" warrants extend sneak-and-peek authority from FISA searches to any criminal search. This allows for secret searches of your home and property without prior notice. Police used to have to "knock and announce" their intention of searching before executing any warrant. This gave the person being searched advance notice and a clear picture of what authorities were looking for. In 1978 FISA changed the law, allowing the FISA court to authorize sneak-and-peek warrants but only in cases where "foreign powers or their agents" were suspected of terrorism. The Patriot Act expands the use of these warrants if "immediate notification of the execution of the warrant may have an adverse result." Under Patriot, such warrants are no longer limited to terrorism investigations but now extend to include any criminal investigation at all. Moreover, the act requires only that notice be given of the search or wiretap "within a reasonable period of its execution," which may be extended by the court for "good cause shown." Would you know if Section 213 had been used on you? Eventually—they do still have to tell you that you've been searched, although the law provides that the period of time may be extended indefinitely for good cause.

    Section 214 - "Pen registers" ascertain phone numbers dialed from a suspect's telephone; "Trap and trace" devices monitor the source of all incoming calls. Neither reveals the content of communication. Patriot removes the warrant requirement for these taps so long as the government can certify that the information likely to be obtained is "relevant" to an ongoing investigation against international terrorism... Section 214 doesn't change this standard but broadens the reach—making the FISA pen register/trap-and-trace power available in both criminal and foreign intelligence investigations, so long as the government merely certifies that the information obtained would be "relevant to an ongoing investigation." The probable-cause requirement in criminal cases is gone. Courts may not inquire into the truthfulness of the allegations before authorizing a tap. Section 216 clarifies that 214 applies to Internet communications.

    Section 206 authorizes roving wiretaps: taps specific to no single phone or computer but to every phone or computer the target may use. It doesn't get as much attention as it should. If the government decides to tap a computer at the UCLA library, every communication by every user can theoretically be intercepted. Taps were formerly applicable only to specific phones. Under Patriot, the FISA court can authorize taps or intercepts on any phones or computers that the target may use. The foreign intelligence authorities can require anyone to help them wiretap. Previously, they could only serve such orders on common carriers, landlords, or other specified persons. Along with Section 220, which allows a judge to authorize national wiretaps rather than ones limited to her jurisdiction, this severely undercuts a judge's ability to monitor whether taps are being used appropriately and erodes the "particularity" requirement of the Fourth Amendment.

    Section 505 authorizes the attorney general or a delegate to compel holders of your personal records to turn them over to the government, simply by writing a "national security" letter. Section 505 has garnered a lot less national attention than Section 215—the library records section of the act—which may be why it is invoked a lot more often. Section 505 authorizes the use of what's essentially an administrative subpoena of personal records. The subpoenas require no probable cause or judicial oversight. According to documents turned over to the American Civil Liberties Union as part of their FOIA lawsuit, the FBI issued enough national security letters since October 2001 to fill more than five pages of logs. What precisely those letters compelled is unknowable, since virtually every page of those logs were blacked out, ostensibly for security reasons. The government has refused to provide further information on how the letters were used.

    Section 802 has received a lot of attention and is almost single-handedly responsible for alienating right-wing groups like the Eagle Forum, as well as fundamentalist Christians across the land. Why? Because it creates a new crime and could, critics say, be used someday to prosecute Operation Rescue protesters. Section 802 creates a category of crime called "domestic terrorism," penalizing activities that "involve acts dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States," if the actor's intent is to "influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion." There was no law like this before. The ACLU has conceded that despite the scary hypothetical applications, it knows of no abortion protester or environmental activist who has been prosecuted under the law. Would you know if Section 802 had been used on you: You'd likely figure it out right quick as they were hauling you away in handcuffs.

    Sections 411 and 412. It's important to note from the outset that virtually all of the administration's unprecedented abuse of aliens—the indefinite detentions, the blanket secrecy, the lack of charges, and the removal of aliens to secret military brigs—have happened absent any legislative authority. While some provisions of Patriot make it easier for the government to treat aliens poorly, Patriot in no way authorized the worst reported abuses.Section 411 makes even unknowing association with terrorists a deportable offense. Section 412 allows the attorney general to order a brief detention of aliens without any prior showing or court ruling that the person is dangerous.

    Conclusion

    In studying and reporting on the most controversial aspects of the Patriot Act, we have attempted to be as evenhanded as possible. It bears repeating that the Bush administration has fostered a good deal of national anxiety by its simple refusal to release information allaying public fears about how the act is being implemented.

    Immediately after Sept. 11, many Americans seemed to fall victim to an understandable fallacy: We believed that by surrendering our freedoms, we were buying national security. Slowly the haze of fear has cleared, and Americans have begun to demand that the freedoms we surrender correspond directly to national security. The parts of the Patriot Act that rankle most are those provisions that sweep normal criminal law enforcement under the looser procedural standards for fighting terror. It's important that the state be able to fight terror. No one disputes this. But it's equally important that the state not use the war on terror to gut the warrant requirement or undermine the First Amendment.

    The best check on such encroachments should be a free and objective judiciary. But as we have noted several times in this series, many of the most disturbing Patriot provisions do away with judicial oversight altogether, while others permit judges to act as rubber stamps in ex parte proceedings—that is, hearings where only the government side is represented.

    The next best check on such encroachments is public scrutiny, and, as we've suggested, that scrutiny is only beginning to be as demanding and impatient as it ought. But most Americans still do not believe that Patriot has in any way affected them. So it's worth noting that many of these provisions are used frequently—even if details are blacked out. Go back and look at the sections that ask whether you'd know if Patriot has been used against you. In most cases the answer is no.

    We really can be safe without being afraid of our government. It simply requires that security measures be narrowly tailored to fit national security needs. Some parts of the USA Patriot Act meet this test. Some do not. And some are purely opportunistic. Before President Bush convinces Congress to "untie the hands of our law enforcement officials" by expanding the Patriot Act, as he proposed Wednesday, Americans need to begin a national conversation about which is which.

  • blacksheep
    blacksheep

    Well, as I am not a terrorist nor plan to be one in the future, I cannot say that the information just posted seems to hit home as some infringement of my rights. I wonder if the 9/11 passengers would have objected to such searches if they had been aware of the possibility of a terroristic outcome on their domestic flight?

    I find it so inconsistent to hear the same people chastise the government and the president for what they should have "known" to prevent 9/11, turn around and bemoan that they oppose searches, investigations, and more power to deal with potential terrorists on the grounds that their "freedoms" might be compromised and that they might somehow be otherwise inconvenienced.

  • Phantom Stranger
    Phantom Stranger

    There was a question asked and I did my best to answer it, BS. In short, I lost a lot of privacy, and a lot of the control and oversight was lost that the Founding Fathers built into the US government with the three branches of government (executive, judicial, legislative). I can't know if my rights, including my right to privacy, have been violated.

    Please indicate where I've blamed the president for 9/11.

    Jayson: "Not that one person here has probably bothered to look it up."

    Jayson, if you're so certain that you're communicating with ignorant, unread, intellectually lazy people, why stick around? Must be a trial for you.

  • SanFranciscoJim
    SanFranciscoJim

    Talesin asked:

    btw, jim, does this one experience mean you MUST sell yr home here? I'm so sorry to hear that!

    Thank you for your concern. Unfortunately, the house must be sold. I did not spend a good portion of my inheritance from my mother's estate to buy a property which must lie vacant because political policy will not allow us into the country. Incidentally, even though I have no past record which would exclude me from entry into Canada, I have been "red flagged" by Canada immigration, and now must be interviewed by an immigration officer each time I cross the border. The reason? Because I attempted to cross the border with someone who has been banned from entry into Canada unless they apply for a "Certificate of Rehabilitation". Such certificates are now very difficult to obtain. In order to apply, here is the laundry list of things the person must submit to the Canadian consulate for consideration:

    * a certified check or money order for $130.00 US (non-refundable)

    * a certificate of conviction from the arresting police department

    * a copy of the statute under which he was convicted

    * a statement from his parole/probation officer

    * a police certificate from the police department where he now resides

    * a federal police clearance from the FBI

    * 3 letters of reference from public officials, clergymen, or “respectable private citizens” who are aware of his criminal record and can attest to his rehabilitation

    * proof of citizenship

    * two passport sized photographs

    * his personal written statement describing the circumstances leading to the offense

    As if this additional documentation weren’t enough, the application form itself asks for the following:

    * name, address, marital status, citizenship, home & work telephones

    * detail of offense, date of conviction, place of conviction, sentence, statute number

    * detailed explanation of the purpose of his visit to Canada

    * an essay providing the reasons why he considers himself rehabilitated, and why he does not represent a risk to public safety.

    * all addresses he has lived at for the past 10 years

    * all jobs he has held for the past 10 years

    Finally, once all this is completed, he has to go to his local police department to be fingerprinted, and submit a copy of his fingerprint card to the FBI with a money order for $18.00 US processing fee. When the FBI stamps his card and returns it to him, then he can submit all the above for consideration to be approved as a visitor to Canada.

    In order to apply, the person has to humiliate themself by presenting themselves to the local police department where they now live as a former criminal. Apparently, Canada does not take into consideration the statute of limitations, or "prior bad acts", which is banned as evidence from any U.S. courtroom. Although I am not an attorney, it seems that this is also in violation of double jeopardy laws.

    Oh, and by the way, did I mention that all of the above applies to persons convicted of misdemeanors such as drinking and driving (DUI) or petty shoplifting regardless of how old the event took place?

    The people in our village in Nova Scotia were so disgusted by our treatment that they came to our aid, and I actually received two phone calls from aides to Members of Parliament. Unfortunately, their hands are tied, and all they said they could do was to "expedite the application for the certificate of rehabilitation".

    So......I see no alternative but to sell the house and bid farewell to Nova Scotia, which I have grown to love as a second home for more than a decade. You cannot begin to imagine how saddened I am that I will likely never see my friends up there again.

    Blacksheep quoted me and said:

    A moot point? Communists WERE proved to be in some of the highest offices in the US, influencing and advising even presidents. Secret intelligence was being passed along to the Soviet Union which resulted in a serious threat to the nation. So a few of the Hollywood elite weren’t able to make pictures for a while. Some were “embarrassed”. My heart goes out to them. What about the millions of impoverished people who were imprisoned, tortured, or even killed by totalitarian communist regimes? What about the clear, obvious threat to national security and safety as a result of welcoming soviety spies and double agents into the highest offices of our land?

    ...and this excuses the fact that many of the so-called "Hollywood elite" lost their jobs and never worked in the motion picture industry again? This justifies the divorces, ripping apart of families, and suicides by some of those questioned by the commission?

    Yes, there was a real threat from Communism, just as there is a real threat today from al Qaeda and other terrorist groups today. However, McCarthy, Cohn, and their cronies got carried away with the scope of power they were given and turned their "investigative committee" into a courtroom holding drumhead trials.

    Finally, please remember that the Eastern Bloc were not the only nations to unjustly imprison innocent people in prisons and gulags. This great nation of ours unjustly interred many thousands of innocent Japanese Americans during World War II. How quickly we forget!

  • blacksheep
    blacksheep

    “...and this excuses the fact that many of the so-called "Hollywood elite" lost their jobs and never worked in the motion picture industry again? This justifies the divorces, ripping apart of families, and suicides by some of those questioned by the commission?”

    Perhaps it wasn’t clear in my post, but what I was trying to illustrate was the relative degree of harm done to people who were “smeared” by McCarthy versus the reality of supporters and defenders of communism back in those days were involved with. I don’t see having to find asylum a wealthy section of Paris to “flee” from the McCarthy microscope exactly analogous to being tortured and sentenced indefinitely to a gulag. I don’t see how murdering masses of people for their political views quite measures up to having to sit on a McCarthy hotseat and explain whether or not you are affiliated with a regime that has clearly become the enemy of the US.

    “However, McCarthy, Cohn, and their cronies got carried away with the scope of power they were given and turned their "investigative committee" into a courtroom holding drumhead trials.”

    And so how many people were actually “sentenced” to the American version of a gulag. I mean, sure, so they lost a few million in potential movie making earnings. But, how many people during that time actually were sent to prison and/or deprived of their constitutional rights?

    "Finally, please remember that the Eastern Bloc were not the only nations to unjustly imprison innocent people in prisons and gulags. This great nation of ours unjustly interred many thousands of innocent Japanese Americans during World War II. How quickly we forget!”

    To be sure, it was not America’s finest hour to intern a group of people because their native land had bombed the US. However, again, I don’t see the comparison. Japanese internment camps were not gulags. Unlike Stalin and other Eastern Bloc leaders, the US did not torture, murder, and otherwise suppress the Japanese.

  • Jayson
    Jayson
    you're communicating with ignorant, unread, intellectually lazy people, why stick around? Must be a trial for you.

    One barb after another. You like them ignore the book & other factual sources offered for the thrill of a zinger for the moment. It's no suprise though, it's all you guys have. Attack and then claims of Nazi's, bullies, and angry... Ignore those who support Bush or United States interests they are "Nationalists" they are bad...Then swear, threaten, bully, provoke; Of course you are on the side that can do that. If anyone shoots back after getting sick of it that is not the rank & file against the US or Bush, or whatever the topic it always goes back to that and then Simon says "Oh the anti-American crowing crowd crys again."

    It's cool. I plan to just start showing how time and time again no matter the topic that is what it leads to. Even the 9 leading Demo's only have "I hate Bush" as a slogan. Never have any real solutions to problems been offered. The "world" blames America and everyone agrees with those at JWD who blame America for everything. Check with Simon he has the BBC poll to prove it.

    China's pollution is really US pollution because the US buys Chinese products. Of course sometimes us means that 5% or so of the blame is UK/EU but that is still irrelevent because it is the USA that is the real problem.

    You know it's the same question if you have left the JW's why are you on a site that speaks ill of them and if you are still with them then why are you on a site that you are not supposed to be on? If you find me so offensive join the crowd who only swears at me and says they are going to ignore me until they feel the need to swear again. Of course you know swearing at me seems to not be a violation of the iron clad rules here. You can swear at DR too. The moderators are always looking the other way when that happens. It reminds me of WWF wrestling when the Ref always fails to see the cheating by the bad guys.

    The War On Terror...Lets hear the other solutions. Drop more condoms and playboys in the Middle East? Reel in the lack of morals in the West? Naw come on "Give War A Chance."

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