Is the "War on Terror" wrong? Why?

by 2escaped lifers 125 Replies latest members adult

  • blacksheep
    blacksheep

    "The War On Terror...Lets hear the other solutions. Drop more condoms and playboys in the Middle East? Reel in the lack of morals in the West? Naw come on "Give War A Chance."

    No, I think the British were onto something with their assessment about going to war with rogue nations who instigate terrorist attacks on western, industrialized, democratic nations. In the same report that confirmed that Blair, in fact, did *not* "sex up," the imminent threat issue, the clear caution to invading or otherwise pissing off terrorist-supporting nations was this: "Don't make 'em mad. There might be MORE terror. If we actually fight back and take an agressive stance, we could really rile 'em up, and they might attack us even more."

    That's leadership at its finest, folks.

  • Phantom Stranger
    Phantom Stranger

    "One barb after another. "

    Well, he's right about the barbs, anyway...

    "The term is punk."

    "Maybe some of us don't kiss the right ass to get away with insults here in the public discussion."

    "Not that one person here has probably bothered to look it up. "

    He might be wrong about their origin, but he's right about the barbs. They just keep coming...

  • Stacy Smith
    Stacy Smith
    Well I guess I'm going to have to get a restraining order, since Dakota, you don't seem to be smart enough to leave me alone, after I've told you several times in public to do so.

    Ok since you are getting a restraining order pick one up for me too Trauma since I am now asking you to stop posting here. If you continue, according to your reasoning, you are stalking me.

    What about that consitution Charlie? Does that play a factor here? Is Dakota one of the many friends you've made from this board that visit you in the real world? I loved your PM Charlie, such a gentleman.

  • Bendrr
    Bendrr

    I've heard all this stuff about the Patriot Act and all I can think to myself is "what's the big effin deal?!"

    Hey folks look! I have no problem whatsoever with my government secretly examining me to make sure I don't fly a hijacked airliner into a building. I have no problem with them making sure I'm not committing some other crime as well. Because I'm not a criminal or terrorist. I do want my government to intercept a phone call or email that will tip them off to some jackass planning on killing a lot of innocent people and if that means they read and listen to what I say, then fine go for it boys! And when they do find a threat, I'd be just peachy if they take his sorry ass out in the middle of nowhere and put a bullet in his head without a bunch of publicity. His co-conspirators will know before I do and get the message and that's just the way I want it.

    And I'm not just talking about Islamic fundies here, I'm also talking about the Tim McVeigh's and Eric Rudolph's out there. They rank right up there with Osama as far as I'm concerned. The terrorists don't fight fair so why should we? Do you think for one second that they gave a damn about the constitutional rights of their victims? No.

    Mike.

  • Jayson
    Jayson

    Mike one word, "sunset."

  • Phantom Stranger
    Phantom Stranger

    Hey, Bendrr, there was a question of what rights were infringed, so I answered it. The assumption in the question was that no rights were really in danger of being infringed. That turns out not to be the case.

    I agree with the idea that the Constitution is not a suicide pact. Our US elected representatives voted in the Patriot Act - it's the law of the land. That stipulated, I can still disagree about how it's to be done in the future, and try to figure out how a fairly hastily-assembled piece of legislation is improved - because we all want it improved, right?

    Since many of these provisions are supposed to "sunset" (expire) in 2005, I hope they are replaced by less broad but equally effective provisions - and I think any writer going to the great length that this Slate author did probably wants the same thing.

  • 2escaped lifers
    2escaped lifers

    Thanks everyone for your interesting comments. Ok....Here we go.....

    Simon said:

    I think the main thing would be to stop manufacturing and exporting weapons and having a more ethical foreign policy, particularly when it came to arms.

    Simon, what do you think is unethical about US foreign policy, especially international arms sales?

    Looking at the bigger picture, the inequality and oppression that breeds terrorism needs to be addressed with fairer trade etc ... There is a cause-and-effect link between things like "farm subsidies" and bombs going off round the world.

    I agree with you up to a point. Do some US policies on foreign relations and trade anger other nations or people? Yes. However, do most of them do the same things, but on different products/commodities with even other countries? Yes. And do they do it back to the US? Yes. Could trade and other relations be conducted more fairly? Yes, and we should all try to influence these as best we can. In free countries, we have the power of the vote, of public debate, etc. Now that we're not JW's anymore, why not get involved in the debate over various issues that affect us personally, or our community?

    That aside, I firmly believe that no level of oppression (or perceived oppression), no economic disparity, no trade sanction ever gives anyone the right or excuse to perpetrate violence against innocent civilians in order to terrorize others into bending to their wishes. NEVER! All who do such things, no matter the validity of the cause, are immoral criminals who should be removed from human society (yes, that is a nice way of saying they should be killed (as in armed conflict), or executed (after a fair trial) ).

    I believe in tough action but we should not abandon ideals of justice in the persuit of security because if we do we will never reach it.

    I agree, Simon. In my opinion, the "War on Terror" has three fronts. The visible military action against states who sponsor/support/shield terrorists and their training camps. Second, the investigation and prosecution, internationally, of terrorist cell members. But the third front should be a committment, just as firm and resolute as the military one, to build better national and personal relationships with the nations and cultures from which the terrorists usually come. I don't see this second front being pursued with any vigor, but it should be. We will never be rid of the terrorist attacks if we don't first work to get rid of the underlying causes, one of which is primarily religious fanaticism (of course, that's a whole 'nother thread). What needs to develop is a mutual respect for each other's cultures, and the elimination of the belief that either of us must force the other to "convert". The BIG question is, how do we achieve this? Any Ideas, folks?

    An even bigger issue is the fact that most of these countries are totalitarian states. Just as in the WTS, they are fed one-side information and indoctrinated by the State, or State sponsored religious leaders, so they don't know the truth, or even how to identify it. They only know what they are told. So, in the long term, I believe that for the world to actually achieve anything akin to lasting peaceful relations between most of the countries around the globe, the totalitarian states must go, and freedom must prevail. Does this mean that the "free world" should go on a jihad to wipe out the dictatorships and communist regimes of the world and replace them with governments that provide basic freedoms and human rights?

    It reminds me of a line in the movie "First Knight", where Sean Connery, as King Arthur of Camelot says, "Either what we hold as right, and true, and good...*IS* right and true and good....or we're just another robber tribe." Either our current best efforts at democracy - including the struggle against Terrorism, a global free market ecomony, and defending human rights - *IS* the best we humans have developed yet for the common good, or we're just another petty nation with its own dillusions of grandeur.

    And, if these are the best we've come up with yet, then don't we have the moral right, even responsibility, to liberate the countless billions of humans from their tyrannical and oppressive leaders? What greater service could we perform, for the common good of humanity, than to eliminate the greedy and ruthless oppressors, such as in Iraq.

    What do you folks think?

    Brandon (eagerly awaiting your further opinions )

  • proplog2
    proplog2

    Black Sheep:

    We are NOT any safer. We still only inspect about 1% of the shipping containers that come into this country. We have not followed through on the Nunn/Lugar reccomendations meant to safeguard Russian WMD. We have infuriated millions of Moslems.

    The only reason we haven't had a repeat of 9-11 YET is that the next attack has to be bigger and more spectacular than 9-11. You can be sure that a lot of brilliant, creative, people are cooking up something. Stopping 100% of the terrorists is an impossible task. They only need to get it 1 out of a 1000.

  • blacksheep
    blacksheep

    Bendrr: Great post. I'm agreed: the only people who should be legitmately concerned with extra care/searching would be those with something to hide. I'd sure as hell WANT such perceived "over caution" on any flight that my children are on.

    "We are NOT any safer. We still only inspect about 1% of the shipping containers that come into this country. We have not followed through on the Nunn/Lugar reccomendations meant to safeguard Russian WMD. We have infuriated millions of Moslems."

    Sorry, what exactly is the significance of "infuriating millions of Moslems"? Don't piss em off? We won't like when they get mad?

    Beyond that, I'd really welcome any quantitative data which proves we are not "safer" than we were pre 9/11?

    "The only reason we haven't had a repeat of 9-11 YET is that the next attack has to be bigger and more spectacular than 9-11. You can be sure that a lot of brilliant, creative, people are cooking up something. Stopping 100% of the terrorists is an impossible task. They only need to get it 1 out of a 1000."

    Wow, sounds like your are substantially in the know. Me? I'm satisfied by not having attack on US soil since 9/11. In fact, we've uncovered and prevented some known plots.

    Bottom line: sounds like a fear-inspiring appeal to me: Oooohhh, the next attack will be even bigger and badder than the last one!

  • blacksheep
    blacksheep

    "Hey, Bendrr, there was a question of what rights were infringed, so I answered it. The assumption in the question was that no rights were really in danger of being infringed. That turns out not to be the case."

    You did? I guess I missed a precise, succinct answer as I was ploughing through the 2000 word essay you termed as your "answer."

    During times of war and otherwise special circumstances (as in the unprovoked attack upon thousands of US citizens), I can certainly appreciate a modification of normal business as usual processes when it comes to travel. You seem to have an issue with this, for whatever reason. Civil rights (as in not being searched) seem to be more important than preventing terrorists from murdering innocent citizens.

    We all have our relative priorities.

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