Is the "War on Terror" wrong? Why?

by 2escaped lifers 125 Replies latest members adult

• 

  Amazing

  Hi Aztec,

  ... but, looking into what made someone so angry that they would want to do it is important. We have to do alot of looking at our foreign policy and it's repurcussions before we can place blame.

  Well said and I agree. The Middle east is a mixed cultural and religious baggage that is not easy to get a handle on. The Palestinians, for example, are mostly in abject poverty and the Israelis have been hard on them, and have taken their lands.

  The Saudis, on the other hand, are economically better off than Americans per capita. They are spoiled filthy rich. Yet they support terrorism for a variety of reasons. Osama bin Laden, a Saudi, is wealthy and can have all he wants ... but he chooses a cause to live in caves or hide outs in poor Pakistan ... because he is a religious fanatics "true believer."

  Recently a Pakistani here in Chicago, who moved here a few years ago, told me that Americans are not getting it. This whole issue is not about legitimate grief with American ... rather it is seething hatred that has been biding its time since the end of the Crusades hundreds of years ago ... oddly enough on Sept. 11th. They harbor and teach this hatred to their children and never forget ... whereas Ameicans and much of the west forgets what they had for breakfast in the morning.

  They hate out culture. They hate our way of life. They hate our freedom. They hate us as evil infidels, just as the JWs hate apostates, only worse.

  Who are they? About 20% of the Islamic world. Most Islamics want to be left alone and don't want to cause trouble. They don't mind working with the western nations. But it is the 20% that control Iran, Saudi Arabia, Syria, and did control Afghanistan and Iraq. There are about 2 Billion Muslims ... so 20% means about 400 million Muslims continue the long tradition of hatred.

  There is no negotiation ... and now they they have finally achieved some long awaited power and support and money and training and equipment ... it is war, and will be war for a long time ... the west really has no choice but to fight them to the bitter end ... and that, I am afraid is going to be a long time, long past our lifetimes.

  Jim W.
• 

  Phantom Stranger

  Please note that the following post contains several attempts at light humor. If you are not a fan of light humor or are just "not in the mood", don't get pissed off - no disrespect is inteneded to anyone.

  BS:

  When it comes to international and domestic safety, I certainly DO rely on the government to protect my life and wellbeing.

  Me too...we agree again! but I want some input in how it's done, especially if I am simply trying to improve upon what's already been done (improving existing laws), rather than preventing the decision from being made in the first place. If we pass a law and there are concerns about the law, I think a dialogue on how to improve it is constructive, rather than meaning that I'm in favor ot terrorism. I mean, it's not like I drive an SUV or anything...;)

  I wonder what ol’ Ben would say about how his quote is being used.

  Ben would probably have discerned that it was only used to preface into the next paragraph/question, which immediately asked if privacy was essential. Your answer seems to be "no", but it's certainly not a succinct "no" ;) (Note: since I cut-and-pasted the quote to get it right, I had formatting problems with the text and it appeared larger than I meant it to...I had trouble correcting it at my end. Please don't read anything into any font size differences.)

  I still resent the implication that by wanting my government to be more respectful of the individual liberties on which this country was founded, I want nothing done about terrorism. Read my keystrokes - I am not proposing a zero-sum game! I ask everyone on the thread to consider the possibility that someone who disagrees with them might still be a good citizen, a non-idiot, and an all-around swell fellow.

  Regarding the poll numbers:

  I've seen lots of poll numbers saying conflicting things. I personally think that most people don't understand the Patriot Act yet... since it's 300 pages, I'm sure most people haven't read it, and most people don't even want to read a synopsis :) If they don't understand it, then asking them their feelings about it should yield some interesting and contradictory responses (and does).
• 

  Aztec

  "They hate our culture. They hate our way of life. They hate our freedom"

  True Amazing. I think the Middle East has a lot of penis envy issues to work out but, a lot of their problems are directly related to our foreign policy stances. If my country had been shat upon continuously by a foreign nation I'd be a bit pissed off too. Their culture is so vastly differant than ours that it's hard to compare anything. It's like comparing black with white. So differant! Take a look through their eyes and see how differantly you view the world...

  ~Aztec
• 

  Yerusalyim

  I'm curious as to where this idea that the US has "shat" all over the middle east has come from. We've pumped tons of money into their economy, and until very recently we've been as unintrusive as possible. Our workers and soldiers who ARE present (at the request of the government) goes to great lengths NOT to offend their sensibilities to the point of encroaching on the civil liberties of our own citizens there. No..it's their own governments that have "shat" on them....Can you name one real democracy in the middle east (Israel doesn't count...it's not Arab).

  Aztec darlin...I have tried looking at it from the perspective of the "liberals" on the board...I keep getting nausiated when I do.

  Sure...part of our stradegy should be to find out what causes people to want to blow us up...here's my analysis.

  The Arabs are still smarting over the Crusades...which are very alive for them...almost as if it were current history. The radicals...like the Wahabbis view Western Culture as a threat to their way of life...which it is...not because we're trying to take them down...but because their youth are attracted to our affluent lifestyle...a life style forbidden the young by their religion.

  In a county like Saudi Arabia...where prayer time is ruthlessly enforced...the society is spoon fed this radical view of the world by their imams from day one. The only answer...as far as they are concerned...is to take us down a notch...insult our honor and attack our security...so as to prove to the youth there that the way of life is corrupt and that Allah is having vengence with the West for it's way of life...with the eventual view of converting the world to Islam...and for the radicals...to do so "by the sword" is acceptable and in the tradition of Muhammed.

  Yes...most of world Islam is peaceful...but there is a long history of violence going back to Muhammed who never once held a pen (he was illeterate) but who often held a sword. I praise the vast majoirty of Islam that does NOT hold the radical view and encourage them to speak out against thier violent radicals as I speak out against the KKK, the White Supremecists that try to claim God, and any who do violence in the name of Christianity.

  So the final analysis..the western affluent lifestyle is what threatens the radicals...we can either give up that life style (NOT) or battle these guys.
• 

  Utopian Reformist

  The zionists would have us believe that America fell under the islamic radar and line of sight due to our western lifestyle. Our capitalistic, consumer oriented society has been operating and progressing in full swing for decades without arab interference.
  
  It is our blatant and corrupt favoritism of Israel that KEEPS the US under the islamic fundamentalist radar. If the US dropped support for Israel, the radicals would turn their attention directly to Israel and forget about so-called american capitalist pigs.
  
  While we finance israeli expansion, the israeli economy, israeli military, our own US citizens are suffering and shouldering the burden. As George Washington so aptly noted, "to survive, this republic must not make alliances or enemies".
  
  Israel is a dead weight, a political and financial parasitic albatross. Without our support, they are nothing.
• 

  Yerusalyim

  The zionists would have us believe that America fell under the islamic radar and line of sight due to our western lifestyle. Our capitalistic, consumer oriented society has been operating and progressing in full swing for decades without arab interference.
  
  It is our blatant and corrupt favoritism of Israel that KEEPS the US under the islamic fundamentalist radar. If the US dropped support for Israel, the radicals would turn their attention directly to Israel and forget about so-called american capitalist pigs.
  
  While we finance israeli expansion, the israeli economy, israeli military, our own US citizens are suffering and shouldering the burden. As George Washington so aptly noted, "to survive, this republic must not make alliances or enemies".
  
  Israel is a dead weight, a political and financial parasitic albatross. Without our support, they are nothing.

  Feeling a little antisemetic again today are we?

  EVEN if this were true...IT DOESN"T MATTER....The existence of the State of Israel affects the Saudis...the Iraqis...the Egyptians...etc etc etc in NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM..what you describe is irrational prejudice.

  Has it ever occured to you the "radicals" if this IS part of their hatred for the US...are just plain WRONG on their position?
• 

  Utopian Reformist

  I understand the "new and improved" neo-conservative arsenal includes the wanton and liberal misuse of the term "anti-semitic". It is a proven tactic. The term "semitic" has been journalistically hijacked by the zionist cabals.
  
  Therefore, any scrutiny, criticism, or disagreement with any part of the current agenda results in being labeled "anti-semitic". Notice, unlike the NAZI's of WWII, I did not ever claim that being jewish is a crime, or offensive, or inferior, or sub-human. I have never criticized or attacked anyone on the basis of claiming a jewish heritage.
  
  Are you an "anti-anglo" for disagreeing and jousting with your liberal opponents? Are you "anti-latin" for disliking my viewpoints and criticizing my opinions? I know you better than you know yourself. Despite your contempt and dislike for me, I can still find a small degree of respect for your tenacity. My disagreements with you do not represent any prejudice for anglo-saxon WASP or white americans.
  
  Only zionists are allowed to tar and feather anyone who disagrees with their agenda and hide behind an ethnic label they have no legitimate historic claims to any longer.
• 

  Utopian Reformist

  Yerusalayim:
  
  You may have achieved imperial status in this forum. But, as all discriminating minds know, quantity is never a substitute for quality.
  
  You make efforts to research, but I believe you fall short by superficially probing for selective materials designed to add credibility and authority to your public support of the Bush Cabal.
  
  Next time you visit a veteran's home, ask a disabled veteran how he might feel about supporters of McNamara, Westmoreland or better yet, how he feels about the defense industry and politics.
  
  Your loyalty will never be rewarded and is misguided. It is sad to waste potential. I sympathize for you.
• 

  Panda

  UnitarianReformist, What the heck are you trying to say? Because someone supports the American war on terror that they are "blinded" and "pro-zionist"? Last time I checked the USA gives $$$ to just about everyone, not just Israel. And the USA was the nation to first recognise Israel at the UN. And the US lobbied to get other nations onboard. I don't know that it is bad if the UN was guilt driven. So many sat by and watched while atrocities occurred. And personally what can one individual do to stop the hate? Nothing. But you are able to join w/ a larger force to help. That's what the UN is supposed to be about.
  

  Today, because of actions taken by the USA, the UN, and NATO some people are better off. Yeah, some girls get an education now. Those who can work very hard to get their nations infrastructure running. Some people have been allowed to return to their home countries and help to establish order. This stuff doesn't happen overnight.

  Sheeesh, look at America after the Revolutionary War. What a mess. Some states charging protective tariffs, others road taxes or river tolls --- taken at gun point. Yeah there was plenty of nation building which needed to take place. And some said "Gosh I wish we never had a revolution and King George was still our King." Wow. There's so much more to say, but when I know this will fall on deaf ears and blind eyes ... no lo se mijo.
• 

  Jayson

  Well, U F,

  Maybe the UN should not have allowed Israel to form. Maybe Jews do not deserve a Nation-State. Maybe the Middle East should be for Muslims only. Then again....Maybe not.

  You are entitled to your opinion. And that opinion is always helpful when you call to watchout for people painting with broad strokes and unbalanced minds.

  Happy day.

  <edit to add>

  Panda,

  In 1917 on 11/2 British Foreign Minister Athur Balfour supports and proposed a Jewish State in Palistine.

  (BTW the term "Palistine" is a term for a region not a nation-state.")

  In 1921 the British Empire spit Palistine into two seperate regions. "Trans-jordan" is ruled by the Abdullah and the Hashemites.

  In 1947 Pakistan becomes a state and British rule is ended. The UN divided Palistine into Jewish and Arab states.

  1948 5/14 Israel is proclaimed a State and Egypt, trans-jordan, Syria, and Lebanon begin armed invasions.

  2000 GW Bush becomes President of the USA.

  2003 The USA is at fault.