Is the "War on Terror" wrong? Why?

by 2escaped lifers 125 Replies latest members adult

  • Yerusalyim
    Yerusalyim
    Now, after encroaching settlements, a wall in Gaza, incursions into the West Bank, I totally understand why other islamic countries are secretly and rapidly pursuing nuclear programs. I am in favor of Iran, Syria, Jordan, Egypt and Libya acquiring and deploying nuclear weapons with limited capacity to the middle east. Why?

    The Wall in Gaza...works..."incursions" into the West Bank...made necessary...These are because the Arabs have CONTINUALLY used these areas for terrorist attacks against Israel. Ya know the great thing about the wall...since it went up around Gaza...NOT ONE SINGLE suicide bomber has crossed from Gaza to Israel...makes the Wall going up around the West Bank look pretty good.

    UR, the thing is...the Palis could control this...maybe not completely end it...but they could control it...they don't want to.

    I just finished reading "My 'War' With Israel" by King Hussein of Jordan, it's interesting and revealing...I recommend it. With in the first paragraph he confirms that yes indeed Jordan was allowing terrorists to use the West Bank launch attacks against Israel...thus the '67 war.

  • Mr. Kim
    Mr. Kim

    Is the "War on Terror" wrong? Why?

    Answer: No. The war on terror is the right thing to do however, the "lines of who is really who" are blurred and fading away. We, as Americans are losing our freedoms and are targeted as the "bad guys" by our own Government. There is more than meets the eye goings on forcing a bad agenda against the average person which, of course, is going to have to pay for the whole damn thing in more way than one!

    Mr. KIM

  • Yerusalyim
    Yerusalyim

    Mr Kim says:

    Is the "War on Terror" wrong? Why?

    Answer: No. The war on terror is the right thing to do however, the "lines of who is really who" are blurred and fading away. We, as Americans are losing our freedoms and are targeted as the "bad guys" by our own Government. There is more than meets the eye goings on forcing a bad agenda against the average person which, of course, is going to have to pay for the whole damn thing in more way than one!

    Mr. KIM

    I respond: What "freedoms" have you lost? What is the "bad agenda"? More conspiracy theory with nothing to back it up.

  • Mr. Kim
    Mr. Kim

    Yerusalyim,

    Thought you might be interested in this. Sure you are? Tear it up Yerusalyim! I look around and see a lot of things changing. Do you see change? Oh well. Who really cares? I Don't know who is right. I DO know what is going on in our country is NOT right! But, who cares? All is fine and perfect. Huh? Sure it is................. Time will tell!!

    I shall allow Alex Jones to answer this burning issue for you in an attempt to open your eyes and peek through the blinders and blissful ignorance. Now pay attention and READ the Factual information presented here. I am sure YOU have nothing to worry or be concerned about as YOU live in a perfect dream world where EVERYBODY is a trustworthy, God fearing priestly type that plays the same old song day after day and lures the innocent into a snare and slowly conditions and drains the life from the worthless cattle waiting to be slaughtered.

    I am also sure you will say all of this is "BS". But then, when you are presented with the Laws as outlined and explained here; your future endeavors would be threatened IF you fully understood what the reality is in FRONT of your face. Fear not! Nothing to be concerned about. YOU have ALL of the ANSWERS.

    For what it is worth.............

    A Brief Analysis of the Domestic Security Enhancement Act 2003, Also Known as Patriot Act II
    By Alex Jones
    www.infowars.com
    (Posted Feb 10, 2003)

    Congressman Ron Paul (R-Tex) told the Washington Times that no member of Congress was allowed to read the first Patriot Act that was passed by the House on October 27, 2001. The first Patriot Act was universally decried by civil libertarians and Constitutional scholars from across the political spectrum. William Safire, while writing for the New York Times, described the first Patriot Act's powers by saying that President Bush was seizing dictatorial control.

    On February 7, 2003 the Center for Public Integrity, a non-partisan public interest think-tank in DC, revealed the full text of the Domestic Security Enhancement Act of 2003. The classified document had been leaked to them by an unnamed source inside the Federal government. The document consisted of a 33-page section by section analysis of the accompanying 87-page bill.

    *Note: On February 10, 2003 I discovered that not only was there a house version that had been covertly brought to Hastert, but that many provisions of the now public Patriot Act II had already been introduced as pork barrel riders on Senate Bill S. 22. Dozens of subsections and even the titles of the subsections are identical to those in the House version. This is very important because it catches the Justice Department in a bald-faced lie. The Justice Department claimed that the secret legislation brought into the House was only for study, and that at this time there was no intention to try and pass it. Now upon reading S. 22, it is clear that the leadership of the Senate is fully aware of the Patriot Act II, and have passed these riders out of their committees into the full bill. I spent two hours scanning through S. 22 and, let me tell you, it is a nightmare for anyone who loves liberty. It even contains the Our Lady of Peace Act that registers all gun owners. It bans the private sale of all firearms, creates a Federal ballistics database, and much more.

    There are other bills in the Senate that grant the Federal government sweeping powers. S.45 states in section one that the office for State and local government coordination for Homeland Security will no longer just oversee, but that now local cities critical functions will be headed by a Federal director. On Tuesday, February 11th, we noted a story in The Times-Picayune with the headline: Nagin announces major overhaul of City Hall --New Homeland Security office to oversee cops, firemen, emergency agency. The Federal power-grab taking place is widespread and all Americans must mobilize to resist it.

    Another interesting bill is S. 16. S. 16 is a smorgasbord of Federal funding and control over local police departments and needs to be examined closely.

    S. 89, The Universal National Service Act of 2003 is the hallmark of an authoritarian society. The description of the bill is, "To provide for the common defense by requiring that all young persons in the United States, including women, perform a period of military service of civilian service in furtherance of the national defense and homeland security, and for other purposes." We have looked at some of the programs that the Federal government has already been setting up for service here in the "homeland" and they include East German-style tattletale squads of every type, which are just basically a super TIPS program. The nightmare goes on and on. Check it out for yourself.

    The Patriot Act II bill itself is stamped "Confidential -Not for Distribution." Upon reading the analysis and bill, I was stunned by the scientifically crafted tyranny contained in the legislation. The Justice Department Office of Legislative Affairs admits that they had indeed covertly transmitted a copy of the legislation to Speaker of the House Dennis Hastert, (R-Il) and the Vice President of the United States, Dick Cheney as well as the executive heads of federal law enforcement agencies.

    It is important to note that no member of Congress was allowed to see the first Patriot Act before its passage, and that no debate was tolerate by the House and Senate leadership. The intentions of the White House and Speaker Hastert concerning Patriot Act II appear to be a carbon copy replay of the events that led to the unprecedented passage of the first Patriot Act.

    There are two glaring areas that need to be looked at concerning this new legislation:

    1. The secretive tactics being used by the White House and Speaker Hastert to keep even the existence of this legislation secret would be more at home in Communist China than in the United States. The fact that Dick Cheney publicly managed the steamroller passage of the first Patriot Act, insuring that no one was allowed to read it and publicly threatening members of Congress that if they didn’t vote in favor of it that they would be blamed for the next terrorist attack, is by the White House’s own definition terrorism. The move to clandestinely craft and then bully passage of any legislation by the Executive Branch is clearly an impeachable offence.

    2. The second Patriot Act is a mirror image of powers that Julius Caesar and Adolf Hitler gave themselves. Whereas the First Patriot Act only gutted the First, Third, Fourth and Fifth Amendments, and seriously damaged the Seventh and the Tenth, the Second Patriot Act reorganizes the entire Federal government as well as many areas of state government under the dictatorial control of the Justice Department, the Office of Homeland Security and the FEMA NORTHCOM military command. The Domestic Security Enhancement Act 2003, also known as the Second Patriot Act is by its very structure the definition of dictatorship.

    I challenge all Americans to study the new Patriot Act and to compare it to the Constitution, Bill of Rights and Declaration of Independence. Ninety percent of the act has nothing to do with terrorism and is instead a giant Federal power-grab with tentacles reaching into every facet of our society. It strips American citizens of all of their rights and grants the government and its private agents total immunity.

    Here is a quick thumbnail sketch of just some of the draconian measures encapsulated within this tyrannical legislation:

    SECTION 501 (Expatriation of Terrorists) expands the Bush administration’s “enemy combatant” definition to all American citizens who “may” have violated any provision of Section 802 of the first Patriot Act. (Section 802 is the new definition of domestic terrorism, and the definition is “any action that endangers human life that is a violation of any Federal or State law.”) Section 501 of the second Patriot Act directly connects to Section 125 of the same act. The Justice Department boldly claims that the incredibly broad Section 802 of the First USA Patriot Act isn’t broad enough and that a new, unlimited definition of terrorism is needed.

    Under Section 501 a US citizen engaging in lawful activities can be grabbed off the street and thrown into a van never to be seen again. The Justice Department states that they can do this because the person “had inferred from conduct” that they were not a US citizen. Remember Section 802 of the First USA Patriot Act states that any violation of Federal or State law can result in the “enemy combatant” terrorist designation.

    SECTION 201 of the second Patriot Act makes it a criminal act for any member of the government or any citizen to release any information concerning the incarceration or whereabouts of detainees. It also states that law enforcement does not even have to tell the press who they have arrested and they never have to release the names.

    SECTION 301 and 306 (Terrorist Identification Database) set up a national database of “suspected terrorists” and radically expand the database to include anyone associated with suspected terrorist groups and anyone involved in crimes or having supported any group designated as “terrorist.” These sections also set up a national DNA database for anyone on probation or who has been on probation for any crime, and orders State governments to collect the DNA for the Federal government.

    SECTION 312 gives immunity to law enforcement engaging in spying operations against the American people and would place substantial restrictions on court injunctions against Federal violations of civil rights across the board.

    SECTION 101 will designate individual terrorists as foreign powers and again strip them of all rights under the “enemy combatant” designation.

    SECTION 102 states clearly that any information gathering, regardless of whether or not those activities are illegal, can be considered to be clandestine intelligence activities for a foreign power. This makes news gathering illegal.

    SECTION 103 allows the Federal government to use wartime martial law powers domestically and internationally without Congress declaring that a state of war exists.

    SECTION 106 is bone-chilling in its straightforwardness. It states that broad general warrants by the secret FSIA court (a panel of secret judges set up in a star chamber system that convenes in an undisclosed location) granted under the first Patriot Act are not good enough. It states that government agents must be given immunity for carrying out searches with no prior court approval. This section throws out the entire Fourth Amendment against unreasonable searches and seizures.

    SECTION 109 allows secret star chamber courts to issue contemp charges against any individual or corporation who refuses to incriminate themselves or others. This sections annihilate the last vestiges of the Fifth Amendment.

    SECTION 110 restates that key police state clauses in the first Patriot Act were not sunsetted and removes the five year sunset clause from other subsections of the first Patriot Act. After all, the media has told us: “this is the New America. Get used to it. This is forever.”

    SECTION 111 expands the definition of the “enemy combatant” designation.

    SECTION 122 restates the government’s newly announced power of “surveillance without a court order.”

    SECTION 123 restates that the government no longer needs warrants and that the investigations can be a giant dragnet-style sweep described in press reports about the Total Information Awareness Network. One passage reads, “thus the focus of domestic surveillance may be less precise than that directed against more conventional types of crime.”

    *Note: Over and over again, in subsection after subsection, the second Patriot Act states that its new Soviet-type powers will be used to fight international terrorism, domestic terrorism and other types of crimes. Of course the government has already announced in Section 802 of the first USA Patriot act that any crime is considered domestic terrorism.

    SECTION 126 grants the government the right to mine the entire spectrum of public and private sector information from bank records to educational and medical records. This is the enacting law to allow ECHELON and the Total Information Awareness Network to totally break down any and all walls of privacy.

    The government states that they must look at everything to “determine” if individuals or groups might have a connection to terrorist groups. As you can now see, you are guilty until proven innocent.

    SECTION 127 allows the government to takeover coroners’ and medical examiners’ operations whenever they see fit. See how this is like Bill Clinton’s special medical examiner he had in Arkansas that ruled that people had committed suicide when their arms and legs had been cut off.

    SECTION 128 allows the Federal government to place gag orders on Federal and State Grand Juries and to take over the proceedings. It also disallows individuals or organizations to even try to quash a Federal subpoena. So now defending yourself will be a terrorist action.

    SECTION 129 destroys any remaining whistleblower protection for Federal agents.

    SECTION 202 allows corporations to keep secret their activities with toxic biological, chemical or radiological materials.

    SECTION 205 allows top Federal officials to keep all their financial dealings secret, and anyone investigating them can be considered a terrorist. This should be very useful for Dick Cheney to stop anyone investigating Haliburton.

    SECTION 303 sets up national DNA database of suspected terrorists. The database will also be used to “stop other unlawful activities.” It will share the information with state, local and foreign agencies for the same purposes.

    SECTION 311 federalizes your local police department in the area of information sharing.

    SECTION 313 provides liability protection for businesses, especially big businesses that spy on their customers for Homeland Security, violating their privacy agreements. It goes on to say that these are all preventative measures – has anyone seen Minority Report? This is the access hub for the Total Information Awareness Network.

    SECTION 321 authorizes foreign governments to spy on the American people and to share information with foreign governments.

    SECTION 322 removes Congress from the extradition process and allows officers of the Homeland Security complex to extradite American citizens anywhere they wish. It also allows Homeland Security to secretly take individuals out of foreign countries.

    SECTION 402 is titled “Providing Material Support to Terrorism.” The section reads that there is no requirement to show that the individual even had the intent to aid terrorists.

    SECTION 403 expands the definition of weapons of mass destruction to include any activity that affects interstate or foreign commerce.

    SECTION 404 makes it a crime for a terrorist or “other criminals” to use encryption in the commission of a crime.

    SECTION 408 creates “lifetime parole” (basically, slavery) for a whole host of crimes.

    SECTION 410 creates no statute of limitations for anyone that engages in terrorist actions or supports terrorists. Remember: any crime is now considered terrorism under the first Patriot Act.

    SECTION 411 expands crimes that are punishable by death. Again, they point to Section 802 of the first Patriot Act and state that any terrorist act or support of terrorist act can result in the death penalty.

    SECTION 421 increases penalties for terrorist financing. This section states that any type of financial activity connected to terrorism will result to time in prison and $10-50,000 fines per violation.

    SECTIONS 427 sets up asset forfeiture provisions for anyone engaging in terrorist activities.

    There are many other sections that I did not cover in the interest of time. The American people were shocked by the despotic nature of the first Patriot Act. The second Patriot Act dwarfs all police state legislation in modern world history.

    Usually, corrupt governments allow their citizens lots of wonderful rights on paper, while carrying out their jackbooted oppression covertly. From snatch and grab operations to warantless searches, Patriot Act II is an Adolf Hitler wish list.

    You can understand why President Bush, Dick Cheney and Dennis Hastert want to keep this legislation secret not just from Congress, but the American people as well. Bill Allison, Managing Editor of the Center for Public Integrity, the group that broke this story, stated on my radio show that it was obvious that they were just waiting for another terrorist attack to opportunistically get this new bill through. He then shocked me with an insightful comment about how the Federal government was crafting this so that they could go after the American people in general. He also agreed that the FBI has been quietly demonizing patriots and Christians and “those who carry around pocket Constitutions.”

    I have produced two documentary films and written a book about what really happened on September 11 th . The bottom line is this: the military-industrial complex carried the attacks out as a pretext for control. Anyone who doubts this just hasn’t looked at the mountains of hard evidence.

    Of course, the current group of white collar criminals in the White House might not care that we’re finding out the details of their next phase. Because, after all, when smallpox gets released, or more buildings start blowing up, the President can stand up there at his lectern suppressing a smirk, squeeze out a tear or two, and tell us that “See I was right. I had to take away your rights to keep you safe. And now it’s your fault that all of these children are dead.” From that point on, anyone who criticizes tyranny will be shouted down by the paid talking head government mouthpieces in the mainstream media.

    You have to admit, it’s a beautiful script. Unfortunately, it’s being played out in the real world. If we don’t get the word out that government is using terror to control our lives while doing nothing to stop the terrorists, we will deserve what we get - tyranny. But our children won’t deserve it.

  • Mr. Kim
    Mr. Kim

    Oh, who cares?

    Nothing to worry or be concerned about.

    Unless of course, you have something to hide....?

    Do not ask questions!

    Do as you are told to do.

    Trust us!

  • maybesbabies
    maybesbabies

    Well, it's pretty interesting as to who is listed as a terrorist these days.

  • avishai
    avishai

    I find the post at the top of the page to be offensive & anti-semitic to say the least. Not all "Jews" are israelis, not all Israelis are jews. To say "jews hate poles" that is why it is wrong to send a jewish ambassador. The germans killed lots of jews, so we should'nt send a Jewish ambassador, is ridiculous. Trying to find a scapegoat for all the worlds problems, & once again pin it on "The Jews" just like the last 2,000 years or so. Every problem in the world has been blamed on them, from the black plague to syphilis to slavery. And were STILL at it? Geez, c'mon. I know, let's blame Luxumbourgers for a change. Maybe the Zoroastrians? It's just getting really, really, really old.

  • Mr. Kim
    Mr. Kim

    Maybesbabies,

    Your last post proves part of the point. But how many people can really understand? Until, of course, it is their turn?

    Like most people say, who cares?

    Thanks,

    Mr. KIM

  • maybesbabies
    maybesbabies

    You're right, Mr Kim, not many people care when it's "just immigrants" who are being rounded up and held for months with no access to a lawyer, and with no charges filed against them. Yeru keeps asking who has had their rights violated, well it happens to be thousands of immigrants targeted for their race or religion. The "registration" that has been enacted, making men ages 16 and up, of middle eastern or muslim background, register at an INS office turned out to be a huge trap to detain and deport immigrants, not all who were here illegally, in fact many were in the process of gaining citizenship, and are now being deported. An interesting side note is that the INS was charged with shredding documents such as passports, birth and marriage certificates, and applications for citizenship, which means that people who were legally in the process of applying for citizenship have been illegally dumped from the system, allowing for their deportation.

    The Orange County Register January 30,

    03 Two people have been indicted on charges of deliberately destroying thousands of documents that were being processed at the Immigration and Naturalization Service California Service Center in Laguna Niguel.

    Dawn Randall, 24, of San Clemente and Leonel Salazar, 34, of Laguna Niguel, were eached charged with conspiracy and five counts of willfully destroying documents that were filed with the INS.

    Randall and Salazar were contract employees working as file room manager and supervisor, respectively.

    The types of documents shredded were U.S. and foreign passports, birth and marriage certificates, and INS applications and notices.

    The shredding, allegedly done to curtail a backlog, stopped on April 4, officials say, when INS officials discovered two file room clerks shredding unprocessed documents during the evening shift.

    There also have been substantiated reports of abuse of detainees held in these roundups, but again, nobody cares!!!!

    New Report Finds Abuse of Muslim, Arab Detainees in USJim Malone
    Washington
    21 Jul 2003, 19:05 UTC
    A new internal report from the Justice Department has identified dozens of allegations of abuse targeting mainly Muslim or Arab immigrants detained in the wake of the 2001 terrorist attacks.

    The report was prepared for Congress by the Justice Department's Office of Inspector General, an internal watchdog on the various law enforcement agencies included in the department.

    The report found 34 instances of possible civil rights or civil liberties violations targeting mainly Muslim or Arab immigrants detained in the wake of the September 11, 2001, terrorist attacks on New York and the Pentagon.

    Under the sweeping anti-terror law passed by Congress known as the Patriot Act, it is up to the inspector general to investigate alleged civil rights violations involving Justice Department detainees. This latest report concluded that 34 cases of alleged abuse were credible and worth investigating out of more than 1,000 complaints lodged over the past six months.

    Just last month, the Justice Department's Inspector General, Glenn Fine, detailed some initial findings on the abuse allegations before the Senate Judiciary Committee. "This abuse consisted of actions such as slamming some detainees into walls, dragging them by their arms, stepping on the chain between their ankle cuffs, twisting their arms, wrist and fingers and making slurs or threats such as, 'you will feel pain', or 'you are going to die here,'" he said.

    Most of the alleged violations involve guards who work for the Bureau of Prisons at the detention centers where the detainees were held.

    The initial allegations of abuse last month brought concern and condemnation from Republicans and Democrats alike. "Abuse of inmates, no matter what the actual or potential charges, is wrong," said Republican Orrin Hatch, chair of the Senate Judiciary Committee. "It cannot be tolerated."

    Justice Department officials say they take seriously the requirements under the Patriot Act to protect the civil rights and civil liberties of everyone, even those detained because of suspected links to terrorists.

    The officials say the allegations brought forward by the inspector general's office will be thoroughly investigated. But they also note that hundreds of other accusations brought against the department in recent months were dismissed as either not credible or impossible to prove.

  • chachasmum
    chachasmum

    Stacy

    You said, "you are grateful we have a president with balls" I say he may have two balls but he sure as hell does not have any brains.

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