how do you feel re homosexuality?
thichi...you are funny...where is my reasoning circular? And talk about name calling..I think you called me a dubbie...that's about the lamest copout when you don't like hearing someone debate with you I ever heard...even if you don'tlike the way I do so.
maybe what you call a false choice is the only thing some need to validate who they are and why they choose to live the way they do. As Popeye said..."I am what I am"...
I'm also not off topic as you are the one who brings up a book reference that does little to shed light on your argument whatsoever. Except that is to say that if we don't read the books you pointed to then we haven't a clue.
I'm sure this isn't over, but either you do or you don't care about this subject...I could care less either way...I do however care about the people that are gay in my life and for their feelings that I can't explain away with any academic dissection of their lives or who they are.
"I was on a debating team in college and I am a judge for a regional debates for High Schools"
Is this a boast?
Hey Valis...if your reasoning is "circular", I say, Go Valis, go!!!!
And thichi...your logic doesn't bother me in the least. I love your honesty! I don't know what the hell you're talking about, but at least you're honest.
I don't think there is one easy answer for the "cause" of homosexuality. Certainly, just by the law of averages, there must be some people who are genetically predisposed to the same sex. But I do not believe that is the case for all gay men and lesbians. I personally believe experiences in childhood have a great affect on sexuality. I know because of all the male rapes in my early years, when I hit adolescence it was very confusing for me. I found myself attracted to boys and not girls probably because the only thing approaching "affection" that I had known in my life was multiple male rapes. But I did not want to be gay and fortunately I met a woman who was kind and loving; 20 years later I have two children. But, for me, that is one lasting legacy of incest I have to deal with, probably until the day I die.
Having said that I am in no way saying that if a boy gets raped then he turns out gay. Human behavior is far more complex than that sort of simplistic explanation. I believe genetics, mixed with parental roles, mixed with various experiences and finally mixed with long term abusive situations can create personalities all along a giant Bell curve of behaviors. But some of those behaviors will be homosexual in nature.
As for me, it's not the way I swing but I will never sit in judgment on someone who chooses to follow that life. I do not understand the folks who see the need to tell a gay person how disgusting it is. If a homosexual person ever asked my opinion of their lifestyle I would offer it, but until then I cannot in good conscience sit in judgment on someone who chooses the same sex. I believe we are all answerable to God and I've got enough on my plate to answer for without bringing someone else's life into play.
Big Tex, a very thoughtful post indeed...I second your thoughts.
May I add, that we need to focus far less on what gays do, and focus more on what or who they are. I've met straights, bi's, gays and the prerequisite for a friendship with me is how they treat me and their fellowman, not how and who and what way they f**K!!!
I see no need to debate this with anyone...you can't make someone believe what you want them to believe. Perhaps, someone who considers a homosexual, for ie, only someone who f**ks a butt, will only change their mind when, for ie, they are in a distitute way or in a life and death situation and the only person who reaches out to them or saves their life is "the homosexual who f**ks up the butt"!!!!!
I've seen this happen --- life experience and its humbling nature can do more than the exchange of mere words in a debate.
delayed gratification indeed...I found Peck's idea to be somewhat informed, except when you apply it to homosexuals it doesn't deny then the fact that they are gay, but only asks that the person discern who they are why they are that way first...before all other things...no big deal.Probably good advice for everyone..However, this I think does little without ALL the relevant evidence...until then would it be that gay people should wait for science or some other self help twit to tell them how to live when the simple.."This is who I am and the way I choose to live my life..." does the job just fine? I think not. I think thichi's underlying premise is that homosexuality is wrong, abberant, and should be rethought even by those that are happy w/being gay. Lots of moral and self righteous inuendo in there if you ask me. Not even the best worded argument can hide simple truths.
Me kissing a guy, or even touching him aint happening. Thats my choice, my path. Do I judge them? Na....
I have met one of the most flaming fags on this board... and he is a great guy. He was in my house, hell... he was in my pool, and was nothing but a gentleman. I watched to see if he was checking out my "package", he didnt... or hid it well. Did I feel crushed? Um... no.
Now, 2 women doing each other is a good thing, in my minds eye. Hell, I wish my wife swang both ways. I guess that makes me open-minded.
The initial subject line was "Re: how do you feel re homosexuality?"
You cannot debate a feeling. Even a a judge for a regional debates for High Schools should realize that.
Has anyone ever developed a theory that homosexuality might be a side effect of reincarnation?
You come back as the other sex and confusion ensues.
Live and let live sounds good to me. The only things that bother me about this are:
1) gays who are deeply hateful about straights - such as some lesbians who deeply hate men.
While many straight people still dislike gays, I think society is changing away from that attitude and that attention is
needed by some to avoid becoming part of a minority identified by its hatred - rather than fully by its particular love.
The second thing that's upsetting is the squeamish avoidance of talking about anal sex as the primary vector
of AIDS. All this blather about 'safe sex' needs to get to the point and SAVE young lives!
I was never sexually abused as a child. I do know homosexuals that were. I know far more heterosexual women that were.
There are so many pieces to the puzzle.
I know homosexuals from all types of family households.
It does seem that most of my male gay friends are closer to their mothers than to their dads. Which is cause and which is effect. Are they closer because they are gay or are they gay because they are closer.
It seems more youngest brothers are gay, no scientific fact, just seems that way.
I'm not in the gay gene camp. I think its more complex than that.
An error in my brain. Certainly a possibility I have considered. Most of my friends would say its a difference in the brain rather than an error.
I've read a lot of theories. Mutation to control population is a favorite, but if so, it hasn't done much good. and the mutation doesn't keep gays from wanting to have children. I know many who do or who want to.
Lifestyle. Hmmm. 2 men 2 cars, house in suburbs, watch movies at home a lot. Not much of a lifestyle, but we'll take it.
Showtune, fabulous. 95% of the gay men I know love show tunes, Why? I don't know but when I was 10, I absolutely fell in love with the music from West Side Story and it happens to be the only musical Mitch will sit and watch with me. He didn't get the show tune gene.
Fashion sense. I wear baggy blue jeans and T shirts most of the time. My belt and shoes match only by accident.
Promiscuous. In my experience gays are pretty promiscuous. All that testosterone. There are some who live quiet non promiscuous lives though. So thats not a 100% thing.
I know no men who like little boys as sex objects. Mitch and I were talking about this the other day. Have sex with a 7 year old, a 10 year old, a 3 year old. It just grosses us out. Not that we aren't dirty old men. We love flirting with 20 something daddy chasers. Mitch will be 50 this year, can I trade him in on two 25's.
We celebrate 14 years a week from today. We are soul mates. True love between two men can happen and often does. We know more single gay men than coupled which I think is sad. Its just too easy to move on from one man to the next. Grass is greener and all.
Boy George says homosexuality will never be totally accepted because of the anal sex thing. Just too disgusting for the general public. I can understand that I suppose. But it just rocks my world. What can I say? The sling in the basement speaks for itself.
We do love Judy Garland and Ethel Merman and Madonna and Cher. I think they represent a level of freedom that is appealing to us.
The best movies to watch to get a feeling for how it feels to be gay.
A Beautiful Thing (British)
The Sum of Us (Australian)
Priscilla Queen of the Desert (have to listen to the conversations and forget about all the drag)
The Wizard of Oz (just kidding)
All gay movies are about young guys coming out which is great. Its about time they made a movie about middle aged homos. But that would be too boring I suppose. Two hours of me working on my azaleas and Mitch doing laundry. We have very little drama in our lives except for my panic attacks which are mostly under control thankfully.
You will never figure us out. We can't figure ourselves out. We will always have our crushes on straight men, just say no thanks. We'll just go home and dream about you. You can't stop that.
You can try to change us all you want. It won't work. Threaten us. Quote Scripture. Envoke the wrath of god. The next guy that comes along with big burly arms and a hairy chest will still turn my head.
We'll always be among you, always have. We're just more fabulous now.