GOING DOWN TO THE WIRE

by You Know 112 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  Dawn

  The fear of Jehovah is a quality that the Bible is designed to instill in receptive individuals.

  I believe the difference in our beliefs is how we interpret the "fear of Jehovah". You are interpreting this as a fear of discipline aka what will happen at Armageddon, whereas I interpret the "fear of Jehovah" to be like a respectful type of fear.

  A child can fear their parents in two ways (1) I better be good or they'll spank me; or (2) I want to please them, I am fearful of displeasing them because I love them, respect them, and want a good relationship with them. I believe that the "fear" God wants is #2 - that is what he deserves.

  This really goes down to the heart of what I believe is wrong in the JW religion. The focus is on fear, works, appearances. The focus should be on love, respect, and the heart condition. If you're reaching the HEART, then the rest will follow.....like the branch that produces good fruit.
• 

  hillary_step

  Come Now Robert,

  You entangle yourself in your own cunning.

  Actually, the apostle Paul included himself among "every man" who would prove to be a liar in the face of Jehovah's matchless truthfulness. So, given the fact that the apostles themselves stand as liars before God it is therefore no legitimate reason in God's eyes to cite various Watchtower errors as a excuse to beg off from one's faith.

  This scripture as you know was Pauls interpretation of Psalm 116:10, 11 which says:

  I had faith, for I proceeded to speak. I myself was very much afflicted. I, for my part, said, when I became panicky Every man is a liar. NWT

  Paul went on to say in Romans 3:7-8

  7

  Yet if by reason of my lie the truth of God has been made more prominent to his glory, why am I also yet being judged as a sinner? 8 And [why] not [say], just as it is falsely charged to us and just as some men state that we say: "Let us do the bad things that the good things may come"? The judgment against those [men] is in harmony with justice.

  Clearly indicating that the Gnostic thinking that was infiltrating the congregation was in his opinion a lie, compared to the Truthfulness of God. He was actually encouraging his readers to avoid lying philosophies, not view them as a test of faith. He acknowledges that all men ( and some womenlol ) are liars, but that the truth of God liberates us from the lie.

  There is no admonition here that people should found their belief on a lie, that is dangerous thinking for a man of God like yourself to use to try an entice a person to accept the lie of WTS thinking.

  The wily thinking of a theological politician, I surmise has gripped your nether regions. This attitude is concisely described by Robert Burns in Death and Dr. Hornbrook :

  Some books are lies from end to end,

  And some great lies were never pennd;

  Even ministers, they have been kennd

  In holy rapture

  A rousing lie at time to vend,

  And nail it wi Scripture

  Best regards - HS

  Edited by - hillary_step on 10 June 2002 18:16:22

  Edited by - hillary_step on 10 June 2002 18:18:3
• 

  You Know

  Dawn:

  Jehovah's judgments are awesome and fear-inspiring. There's simply no other way to describe them. For example, read the book of Habakkuk sometime. It is described as a vision yet for the appointed time---for the future. It details how the modern-day Babylonian entraps and eats the nations as if they were mere hapless fishes caught in a net. The prophet himself after having the vision wrote: I heard, and my belly began to be agitated; at the sound my lips quivered; rotteness began to enter into my bones; and in my situation I was agitated, that I should quietly wait for the day of distress, for his coming up to the people that he may raid them. And yet Habakkuk welcomed Jehovah's judgments. Similarly, while the collapse of the system will be horrifying to the extend that Jesus said that men will become faint with fear, we who fear Jehovah will not be paralyzed with terror but will find the power to raise ourselves erect in anticipation of Jehovah's salvation. / You Know
• 

  ballistic

  You know, please answer me, as you often ignore me and I am definately not an ankle biter as you put it. I would like to seriously know if you will continue to wait for this great tribulation as long as it takes, even in the knowledge that some have waited over a hundred years now, and were told back then to expect it with great anticipation?
• 

  You Know

  Hillary's False Step:

  You entangle yourself in your own cunning.

  Funny, I was going to say the same of you. LOL

  There is no admonition here that people should found their belief on a lie, that is dangerous thinking for a man of God like yourself to use to try an entice a person to accept the lie of WTS thinking.

  I am not admonishing anyone to base their faith on a lie. On the contrary, Jehovah's Witnesses base their faith upon well established doctrine. However, according to the verses I cited Jehovah recognizes that even those who know him and serve him are subject to error. Just because apostates are induced to seize upon various errors, some real and some contrived, that doesn't mean we are not Jehovah's people. Each one will recieve their judgment. / You Know
• 

  D8TA

  Oh man, with tears in my eyes, I have to ask: Who laughs the hardest? Is it me? Or the Watchtower Monitors who read You Know's posts.

  Keep 'em coming You Know, these posts and replies are cracking me up.

  D8TA
• 

  hillary_step

  Robert,

  Not a false step on my part, but a giant stumble on yours. You noted:

  The way I see it, what the Watchtower says or doesn't say is largely irrelevant anyway. Doesn't the scripture say: "Let every man be found a liar, but God be found true?"

  Here you suggest that the WTS is irrelevant due to the fact that it, like a man can at any moment be proven to be a liar

  I am not admonishing anyone to base their faith on a lie. On the contrary, Jehovah's Witnesses base their faith upon well established doctrine.

  Here you state the WTS is based on well established doctrine, presumably established by God to begin with.

  Can you tell us all which part of WTS teaching is well established doctrine and which part stands the chance of being irrelevant due to it being enmeshed with the man who is found to be liar.

  Best - HS
• 

  You Know

  I would like to seriously know if you will continue to wait for this great tribulation as long as it takes, even in the knowledge that some have waited over a hundred years now, and were told back then to expect it with great anticipation?

  I certainly hope so. Jesus admonished his followers to stay in anticipation of his return no matter how long it took. I think once Christians stop being vigilant they get into trouble. Realistically, though, it shouldn't be too much longer. When you have religious fanatics who are ready, willing, and now, apparently able, to blow up entire cities or unleash deadly chemical or biological agents on population centers, you have a system that is on the brink of an unthinkable catastrophe. Not only that, but the world's only super power is now targetting various 3rd world nations for potentail first strike nuclear attack. I just cant's see how the world's going to get out of this mess.

  Honestly, I can't grasp the sort of reasoning that just because Jesus hasn't arrived yet that he is not going to come. Similarly, it is sheer stupidity to reason that because the world has dodged the nuclear bullet before that it always will. The way things are rapidly shaping up I don't see anyway the system is going to get out of the dire mess that it is in. And, of course, Jesus said the world would reach a state of affairs where they could see no way out. Perhaps you are just not aware of how critical things have become in recent months? Given that the alternative to vigilance is somnolence, I chose to remain AWAKE!

  / You Know
• 

  You Know

  Not a false step on my part, but a giant stumble on yours.

  Nonsense. It's not an all-or-nothing proposition. As I have pointed out, Jehovah's word acknowledges in advance that God's people, due to their own error, our own error, are going to get themselves in a mess. So, it really doesn't matter what apostates dredge up as supposed evidence of fraud in our claim to being Jehovah's people, Jehovah himself has the final say as to who belongs to him and who doesn't. Apostates are supremely presumptous in supposing otherwise.

  Can you tell us all which part of WTS teaching is well established doctrine and which part stands the chance of being irrelevant due to it being enmeshed with the man who is found to be liar.

  Yes, of course. But, first, my point was that the Watchtower is irrelevant as far as making or preventing Jehovah's word from succeeding. God doesn't need us or the Watchtower. Jehovah's word endures forever. But, as one of Jehovah's Witnesses: The part of our faith that is solidly based has to do with who Jehovah is and his purposes toward mankind and the earth. Matters having to do with God's kingdom comprized of his saints. The legal matters having to do with Christ's ransom, and such. None of that is in error. Perhaps there are some details yet to come to light, but nothing significant. Where Jehovah's servants always get blindsided, including the apostles, has to do with prophecy. That's why Jehovah asked the as-of yet unanswered rhetorical question: Who is blind, if not my servant, and who is deaf as the messenger whom I send? Since we claim to be Jehovah's servants and messengers, at some point we will have to humbly accept the fact that we have been blind and deaf to some rather significant features of God's prophetic word. But, that's all apart of the experience that God's word has already laid out for us. / You Know
• 

  ballistic

  When you have religious fanatics who are ready, willing, and now, apparently able, to blow up entire cities or unleash deadly chemical or biological agents on population centers, you have a system that is on the brink of an unthinkable catastrophe.

  The society has brought out numerous articles over the years pointing to the world conditions at that time as being evidence of living in 'the time of the end', but things moved on, generally things have actually improved.

  Not only that, but the world's only super power is now targetting various 3rd world nations for potentail first strike nuclear attack. I just cant's see how the world's going to get out of this mess.

  Surely, You Know, you aren't going to continue highlighting this chance for peace which is occurring in that region as a chance for world war 3? Did you not learn from the Sep 11th incident what such sensationalisation looks like retrospectively?

  Honestly, I can't grasp the sort of reasoning that just because Jesus hasn't arrived yet that he is not going to come.

  There is something in your reasoning I do not grasp but it isn't this.

  The way things are rapidly shaping up I don't see anyway the system is going to get out of the dire mess that it is in. And, of course, Jesus said the world would reach a state of affairs where they could see no way out.

  Of course, you cannot merely point to one or two world events and suggest that the world is "in a dire mess". These world events come and go. The conditions in the world are improving all the time. The world is more peaceful and prosperous than it has ever been. Peoples life expectancy is longer and they are living happier, healthier lives. Education and standard of living is constantly rising. Numerous other things I could write whole posts on have improved - even the number of earthquakes is dropping LOL!

  My question though was one to you personally. How long will you wait? And what goes through your mind when you see the pictures of those who lived, breathed and dreamed about seeing the kingdom on earth at the turn of the 1800 / 1900 century, just as every witness has down through the ages?