whathappened your basis for hating the WT is well founded. May God bless you!
Shocking talk from 2013 District Convention urges parents to shun disfellowshipped children
by cedars 153 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Gayle
Wow, Cedar, thanks for that video. I'll be forwarding that on to many exJWs that are not on this site. Boy, doesn't one just feel the love and joy after a talk like that!!! Oh my gosh!
Well, clearly, the WTS is DESPERATE on this. They see a lot of the rank & file are troubled about this. Many are not willing to throw the first stone at their family members getting DF'd. Or, they are so depressed about this GB "edict" imposed on them to 'shun' their loved ones. This is a burden that many cannot bear. The GB see their 'control' just won't work if members don't follow this, to this degree.
After hearing a talk like this, hopefully, that in itself will put the chill, especially for kids, in getting baptized anytime soon and make parents not push for baptism so strongly for a while. I would think even adult non-JWs in attendance would have a personal thought of 'whoa~' hearing a talk like that.
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adamah
I wanted to highlight something mentioned by 'somebody', back on page 1:
The verses are Jesus speaking and the scriptures read are about confessing HIM. NOT about any disfellowshipped or even former members of the JW sect, or any relgious organization or Jehovah.
Yup!
If you carefully examine the context of Jesus' words in Matthew Chapter 10, anyone can see for themselves that Jesus is giving his 12 disciples explicit instructions and sending them out in field service (imagine a typical meeting for field service, except Jesus is heading up the group):
Matt 10
2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; and James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; 3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the Zealot, and Judas Iscariot, the one who betrayed Him.
Jesus tells them not to bother with the Gentiles, Samaritans, etc; ONLY to preach to the Lost Sheep of Israel (Jews); he also tells them to pack lightly, etc.
5 These twelve Jesus sent out after instructing them: “Do not go in the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter any city of the Samaritans; 6 but rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 “And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ 8 “Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons. Freely you received, freely give. 9 “Do not acquire gold, or silver, or copper for your money belts, 10 or a bag for your journey, or even two coats, or sandals, or a staff; for the worker is worthy of his support. 11 “And whatever city or village you enter, inquire who is worthy in it, and stay at his house until you leave that city. 12 “As you enter the house, give it your greeting. 13 “If the house is worthy, give it your blessing of peace. But if it is not worthy, take back your blessing of peace. 14 “Whoever does not receive you, nor heed your words, as you go out of that house or that city, shake the dust off your feet. 15 “Truly I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city.
Jesus tells them to expect to encounter persecution in their preaching work:
A Hard Road before Them 16 “Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves; so be shrewd as serpents and innocent as doves. 17 “But beware of men, for they will hand you over to the courts and scourge you in their synagogues; 18 and you will even be brought before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them and to the Gentiles. 19 “But when they hand you over, do not worry about how or what you are to say; for it will be given you in that hour what you are to say. 20 “For it is not you who speak, but it is the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you.
Here's a critical clue to what comes later, since Jesus is telling his Jewish disciples (who were listed in verse 2-4) that THEIR non-believing Jewish family members would likely throw THEM under the bus for their preaching work, even turning them over to secular authorities (eg Romans, Sanhedrin, etc) by narcing on them for their membership of a sectarian group (note the words in bold):
21 “Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death. 22 “You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved.23 “But whenever they persecute you in one city, flee to the next; for truly I say to you, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes.
The next passages serve as dramatic foreshadowing for later prosecution and martyrdom of Christians. Jesus explains that HE is hated, and his disciples can expect to be hated, as well. Of course, Jesus had frequently been accused by the Pharisees of healing via the power of Satan (Beelzebul); they could expect the same:
The Meaning of Discipleship 24 “A disciple is not above his teacher, nor a slave above his master. 25 “It is enough for the disciple that he become like his teacher, and the slave like his master. If they have called the head of the house Beelzebul, how much more will they malign the members of his household!
Jesus tells them not to fear secular authorities who will persecute them, since God can resurrect them to save their eternal souls:
26 “Therefore do not fear them, for there is nothing concealed that will not be revealed, or hidden that will not be known. 27 “What I tell you in the darkness, speak in the light; and what you hear whispered in your ear, proclaim upon the housetops. 28 “Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. 29 “Are not two sparrows sold for a cent? And yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father. 30 “But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. 31 “So do not fear; you are more valuable than many sparrows.
(To 'confess Christ' is a way to 'acknowledge and declare faith in' Christ): 32 “Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven. 33 “But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.
NOTE how the entire focus of Jesus' words has been how his DISCIPLES would be treated by authorities, their own families, even by Jesus if they kept their faith under persecution.
So when he says this:
34 “Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 “For I came to SET A MAN AGAINST HIS FATHER, AND A DAUGHTER AGAINST HER MOTHER, AND A DAUGHTER-IN-LAWAGAINST HER MOTHER-IN-LAW; 36 and A MAN’S ENEMIES WILL BE THE MEMBERS OF HIS HOUSEHOLD.
Jesus is saying that a Jewish MAN would betray his Christian FATHER, a Jewess DAUGHTER would be set against her Christian MOTHER, and a Christian MAN'S ENEMIES will be NON-BELIEVING Christian members of his Jewish household! In other words, the Christian would be the TARGET of hatred, not the ones dispensing the HATE to family members!
Jesus' words were NOT proscriptive instructions for how his Christian disciples should treat THEIR non-believing family members, and to claim otherwise is to distort the scriptural passages, even violating Jesus' famous "love your enemy" words (as pointed out eariler).
So who again is it exactly who twists scriptures with a forked tongue again, to fit a desired theology? Didn't Jesus warn about false teachings of men who appeared as "angels of light", designed to mislead his would-be followers?
Jesus concludes by saying that the DISCIPLE who is loyal to the death is one who doesn't cave under familial pressure by denoucing Jesus under threat of persecution and death, even if his Jewish family implores him to recant his allegiance to Jesus:
37 “He who loves (his) father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. 38 “And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. 39 “He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it.
Clearly some dramatic foreshadowing going on, since Jesus is depicted as knowing what lies in his future (death at the hands of the Romans).
BTW, listen to the audio of the talk again, and count how many times the speaker uses the words "we", "us", and "our" when referring to the JW member and their relationship with the WTBTS; then note how often he uses more impersonal terms ("THE family member") when talking about the person who "left" Jehovah and is to be shunned. That's likely no accident, as it's evidence of an effort to create an "us vs them" situation, justified by dehumanization and scripture-bending in order to exert control over their members.
And as painful as it may be to contemplate, I'm not so ready to let the individual rank-and-file JW off the hook for engaging in shunning, EVEN IF they're a "beloved" family member; if they engage in shunning, it means they're either suffering from a shocking lack of reading comprehension, capability for independent thought, or even lack the ABILITY to love others. It may be time to reevalute the worth of their capability to offer and give love to others: some people just don't have it in them, which is a painful thing to come to grips with, esp in a parent (been there, done it, got the t-shirt).
Some people never learned to love from THEIR parents, in the first place, and hence they have nothing to offer since they didn't manage to break the cycle (and that goes for non-JWs as well, it's just that being a JW serves as good cover for those self-centered types who don't have that capacity to love in them). It's easier to love a non-existent being, since it's much easier to be in a "loving relationship" when the imaginary and fantasy being is actually made in your image; it cannot actually do anything to hurt you (I'm not convinced that all believers actually believe in a God, deep down).
If they DO believe, then it's worth considering that our "loving" family members are spiritual over-achievers who are intent on playing an elaborate game, being quite willing to throw all of us under the bus out of their own desire to save their own spiritual skin, but passively allow themselves to be manipulated by adopting a classic Christian 'persecution complex' and catering to group dynamics (which is actually quite egotistical and self-centered; going along with the crowd is done for survival, and placing one's flesh and blood over the interests of the group is pathological).
Adam
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Narcissistic Supply
RE: Video....Who listens to that crap????...Unbelievable...that lady needs to mind his own damn business. What a pompous ass.
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zound
Thanks for the vid Cedars. Did you happen to have a transcript? I want to include part of it in a letter.
What annoys me is the 'poor' family or loved ones of the disfellowshipped person who are going through such hardship. I remember the pity parties thrown for the family members of disfellowshipped ones in my old congregation, people saying "It must be so HARD for you!" "How could THEY have hurt YOU so much!"
Also interesting to note (and this is reflected by individual JW's) he keeps saying in the talk that they "Leave Jehovah". I CONSTANTLY got this. Making the clarification of leaving "organisation" vs. leaving "God" seems to fall on deaf ears.
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Iown Mylife
It is silly, unwise and against all commonsense to ostracize your family just on the say so of other people! OH you must not risk offending Jehovah! If the elders have df someone, you have to shun them!
Why? I want to know what they did MY OWN SELF, so that I can decide if I want to go along with your shunning.
OH NO we can't give you that information! That is a big ol' fat SECRET - you just have to trust us, God wants you to just quit having anything to do with your family member and if you don't, you're gonna die along with them.
Okay, that's good enough for me, if you say so, it must be twoo.
IT'S INSANITY!!!
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*lost*
oh, which is the scripture that says ....
A MAN AND A WOMAN BECOME ONE, and a man must leave his father and mother etc... and put wife and family FIRST.
But - I guess that scripture doesn't count neither ?
Gen2 v 24
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HarryMac
Thanks Cedars.
Hard to listen to that 'tone' after so many years... it's still the same.
I didn't like at all the dumb voice he made when immitating those asking a legitimate question:
"I thought you were Christian and you don't talk to your children!?"
It's a valid question dumbass... lose the attitude.
Also:
Do play the blame game:
You really should ask yourself if you are at fault here for adhering to this policy. You are! For real! That's the real truth.
Finally, the idea that somebody would come up to you and chastise you for speaking to them when they were disfellowshipped the night they were reinstated... that made me smile. Not in a thousand years would that happen. Making people have fear of the future over something like that - that would almost certainly never happen - err, reaching much?
Man, is it just me, his voice is so annoying!
I can't believe how normal I turned out after subjecting myself to these kinds of 'talks'. I'm so happy to be out!
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cedars
Thanks everyone. There are some great comments on the video. I'm glad I'm not the only one who finds it a truly disgusting and heartless piece of propaganda.
Zound
Did you happen to have a transcript? I want to include part of it in a letter.
Sadly I didn't produce a transcript. I wanted to get the recording up on YouTube as quickly as possible after I found it, so the only transcription I did was for the individual subtitles.
Cedars
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InquiryMan
Thanks. Put it up on a scandinavian discussion board for ex-cult victims