FINALLY! Can you prove God exists? If you can I won't ask again!

by punkofnice 544 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • EntirelyPossible

    But what I said is, nevertheless, true.

    Ha ha ha, nice try. You claim to get revelation directly from Jesus that other people can't get. If you aren't better than anyone else, Jesus should either be talking to all of us or none of us. If you are the same and Jesus is talking to you but not other people that sincerely seek help, then HE sucks.

    Either you are better than the rest of us or Jesus is a dick. YOu claim it's neither, but that argument crumbles under logic my 10 year old son can produce.

  • humbled

    maybe jesus talks to us all, just the way tec talks to rawe and rawe listens and talks back. They don't see each other but, o well, they are inching ahead.

    Some people heard or read that Jesus lived long ago, said some things that struck our hearts. One of which was to do his teachings and see if what he said was so. some of us took up the invite.

    Communication is difficult anyway you look at it, EP.

    You have a 10 year old? Have you ever spoken to him and had him tell you later that he didn't hear you?

    Sometimes they don't hear us.

    Also, my father died a couple years back, but things he taught me ring in my ears still.

    But more to the point of hearing Jesus.

    If I internalize his teachings and stay attuned, can't you grant, even without conceding to the supernatural, that I might hear him direct me during the day?

    Rawe and tec are trying to communicate between themselves the difficult concept of "hearing Jesus" when words are NOT spoken.It is too easy to laugh but it is not fair.

    Your acid comments are sometimes deserved but maybe you haven't read the careful exchange of thought these two people are developing.

    I don't think Jesus is exclusive. Personally, I have trouble hearing him. But I have a 10 year old boys problem. Busy with my own concerns and just not listening.

  • rawe

    Hi Tammy,

    "In the God-mind theory, God could leave a person? Is this the opposite of what you have been saying, that God and the person would be inseparable and the same? I could be misunderstanding you, sorry. Perhaps you could rephrase? Thanks : )"

    I need to shove off to bed too. Within the framework of the theory, Christ should always be able to reach you. I.e. going into a steel box would not prevent Christ from being there. This is so, because there is no physical barrier involved, because Christ exists within your mind as a construct and obviously that makes 'Christ' part of you, within you. Yet, this does not mean you would be unable to conceive of Christ leaving you. You could, for various reasons feel forsaken.

    Think too of the witnessing you do about Christ, what do you actually say to the other person? You may share thoughts you've picked up from the Bible. If you've studied that material and it has influenced you -- that would be natural. But it is not likely you would suggest non-personal concepts. Rather thoughts will tend to focus on person-centric. As Jesus said, "I am with you." Could you imagine, someone speaking about Christ in non-personal ways? For example, would it not seem very odd if a person said, "Christ would like to help you, but he doesn't know what you need, he has never met you." Or "Christ isn't interested in us right now, he is working on plans that he'll be acting on a few thousands years from now."

    What all this boils down to is the inescapable fact that all our concepts of others are ultimately within our noggins. We do not even need someone to be physically present for us to think about them. Is it possible to have thoughts about purely imagined individuals who otherwise do not exist in reality? We can, otherwise we could not enjoy watching a fictional character in a movie. Can Obi-Wan Kenobi come with us into a steel box? If we have watched Star Wars and have concept of the character, he can go wherever we go. The concept of him is in our minds -- put there by George Lucas.

    But Christ is obviously different than Obi-Wan. Unlike Obi-Wan the concept of Christ, relates to a number of very important things to us personally. Such as a sense of justice, being loved, being supported, having a purpose, or even helping us survive our ultimate demise -- death. I believe it is for that reason the concept tends to drift towards the ego-centric. You might find this strange, but if Christ is truly personal towards the believer, for the most part, even as an atheist, I think that is healthy. It also the importance of these things to us personally, that makes Christ powerful, inspiring and a motivator, even if he does not exist apart from our us. I.e. Godly power without actually having to exist -- now that is overcoming an amazing deficit! (I really do mean that sincerely)

    Where we got in trouble as Witnesses was believing that our ability to please Jehovah God rested on unquestioned obedience to Christ's Brothers as represented by the Governing Body. In that model we wound up handing over our intellect to another who could abuse it for their own selfish interests.



  • soft+gentle

    I'm becoming very muddled after reading tec and Rawe's discussion so have decided to take another look at punkofnice's question Can you prove God exists?

    Tec, what i understand from what you are saying is that God exists because he is intelligible (although I may be wrong). If this is the case then this implies that God's existence is proved by reason and rationality to exist in himself and this would further suggest that the believer has an existence in himself which would then give both God and the believer a sense of moral freedom and autonomy.

    Rawe you seem to be looking for biological evidence for God in the sense of something that makes psychological sense but your line of reasoning seems to lead also to seek to see God as existing as something in itself and if it can be proved that he doesn't and needs the believer's mind to exist then he is part of a biological process which includes such things as conflict resolution and can therefore be thought of as real and perhaps even as providing a sense of freedom and autonomy but in the end he is constrained by natural biological processes that are intelligible. Tec's God on the other hand isn't part of nature but above it making everything intelligible. Both of you seem to be arguing from reason.

    Does this suggest that according to both of you God does exist in reply to Punkofnice's question. (hope I'm not muddying the waters)

    edit: Rawe I've just read your latest reply to tec. In order not to give unquestioning obedience to a group of men it is important to keep on reasoning.

  • rawe

    Hi Soft+gentle,

    To be completely honest, I am arguing for a concept that makes sense and continues to dignify both the believer and the non-believer. But I am also exploring, via this thread, the idea. In other words, I would like to bat this idea back and forth to see if it can hold up and remain rational.

    Richard Dawkins said very smartly in his book The God Delusion, (I paraphrase), in regards to the Gods of the past, we are all atheists, modern atheists just go one God more. I remember reading that, sitting in my car outside Costco, after I left the faith in 2007, thinking how brilliant that logic was. Indeed, on what basis do we so smuggly claim Zeus does not exist? Or why is it so easy for us in the modern world to dismiss his existence?

    The answer Christians give of course is not really that bad -- namely, Christ continues to be believed because he exists. His power, tied to existence, has defeated wrong and false belief and continuing to insist (or hope?) he doesn't exist is what is delusional.

    But, yes, in answer to PunkOfNice, I believe God exists, but only within the minds of believers. And this mode of existence helps explain the difference we sense between Christ and Zeus in the modern world. Of couse there are 7 billion people on the planet and I would not be surprised if at least some continue to hold Zeus as real or even Obi-Wan for that matter. But Christ is a widely held belief.



  • Qcmbr

    • Believers do not tend to struggle in understanding why a culturally dead god is fake and a figment of imagination (Zeus, Ra etc.)
    • Believers do not tend to struggle in understanding why culturally alive but different gods are fake and a figment of the imagination (Jehovah v Allah v Xenu etc.)
    • Believers know exactly what proves their god (anecdotes - including scriptures, personal psychological experiences, cherry picked facts)
    • Believers know roughly why similar style proofs of others' gods are not valid (anecdotes are unreliable, deception, evil, wrong or out of context facts)
    • Believers know exactly who is in the group and who is 'other' and have names, words and a language to describe this.
    • Believers can spot rudeness , hypocrisy, close-minded thinking, stonewalling and lack of logical thinking in 'others'.
    • Believers know that their belief and lifestyle recipe will get results (someday) and everyone can get the exact same results. Failed results are caused by simply not trying had enough, lack of committment , unresolved sin or some such solvable human failing.

    • Believers are unable to conceptualise what would invalidate or identify their god as fake UNTIL they allow themselves to doubt. This is the real reason why the number 1 universal teaching of religion is not love, it is faith, belief without question.

    If you wish to prove or disprove god exists then you have to have something to test. If you have nothing to test the question doesn't even make sense.

  • suavojr

    Great conversation tec & rawe!

    The concept of God in our minds VS. The certainty of God's true existence and how he dwells within us

    This truly is a fascinating debate. I don't see how can neither way of looking at life can prove or disprove one or the other. Let's analyze 4 quotes: If children understand that beliefs should be substantiated with evidence, as opposed to tradition, authority, revelation or faith, they will automatically work out for themselves that they are atheists.
    Richard Dawkins Faith is a knowledge within the heart, beyond the reach of proof.
    Khalil Gibran On the other hand you have people who believe like this: Faith is taking the first step even when you don't see the whole staircase.
    Martin Luther King, Jr. Before the throne of the Almighty, man will be judged not by his acts but by his intentions. For God alone reads our hearts.
    Mahatma Gandhi I see both having valid points and reasoning, now consider what Michio Kaku has expressed, “Physicists are made of atoms. A physicist is an attempt by an atom to understand itself.”
    ? Michio Kaku , Parallel Worlds: A Journey Through Creation, Higher Dimensions, and the Future of the Cosmos

    So where did the source of energy come from to form such atom? The answer is either an almighty God or something else. It is interesting to see how two human beings can overcome the same circumstance, one with the help of God and the other without. At the end, we are just an atom trying to understand itself, and personally I will always have an open mind to the existence of a spiritual world. If we think we can travel in time, co-exist with parallel galaxies, etc... then why can't there be a spiritual dimension?
  • rawe

    Hi Qcmbr,

    "Believers do not tend to struggle in understanding why a culturally dead god is fake and a figment of imagination (Zeus, Ra etc.)"

    My use of the word 'struggle' was misleading. I do mean struggle, but not in the sense of the mind being conscieously aware of this. In the same manner as the brain fills in the two blind spots. It 'struggles' to do this, but it seem effortless to us. In the same way, I think a believer's mind is seeking to be rational in face of being unable to answer the question: Why do I have this strong belief that I am certain of, but I cannot prove it externally and I am confronted with people who don't believe? It is at this point, some of the rationalizations such as you believed in a false God, you have an unresolved sin, you don't like what God asks of you, etc, absolutely any explanation that reaches a rational conclusion without having to open the door to the idea maybe God does not exist as an external reality.

    So when I suggested to Tammy that is what her brain was stuggling with, her response was basically, no, no struggle at all. And I am suggesting that is great insight for us non-believers. It demonstrates a sincerity and not a purposeful avoidance of the conclusion God does not exist, for self-serving reasons. To Tammy, Christ exists, there is no question about it, even while she admits up front the knowledge of this is personal, spiritual and not externally accessible. Please, Tammy, expand on this, since this could sound like I am able to speak to your views.



  • mrsjones5

    Thank you rave. I am really enjoying this conversation.

  • tec

    maybe jesus talks to us all

    Yes, Maeve, He does, and this is something that has been repeated many times. Making EP's post at the top of this page (21) a good example of someone NOT hearing something that is being said to him. (or at least written to him) I would like to use the steel-box example to show how some do this with the Spirit.

    One can build a figurative (or spiritual) steel box so that one does not hear Him, though He may be speaking. For example, some time ago, I asked a question that had to do with something I wanted to do. I am not going to reveal what that was. I asked, is it okay if I do this thing? But even before the last word of my question was out, I felt an immediate clenching in my chest, as I immediately turned away so as not to hear the answer. I did not want to hear any answer other than 'yes', and I was afraid that the answer would be 'no.' I did not mean to do it... and at the same time, I did.

    I am the one who asked the question, but at the same time I did not want to hear the truth if that truth was something other than what I wanted to hear, and I know that my Lord speaks only truth. It was some time before I could hear Him again... due to my own avoidance. Others do similar to that in avoidance of the truth, or in fear of it, or perhaps because they are not ready or think that they cannot follow what they hear. They do not WANT to hear - not really, even though they say they DO - and so they do NOT hear.

    Peace to you both,


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