FINALLY! Can you prove God exists? If you can I won't ask again!

by punkofnice 544 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • tec

    Rawe, I think I understand what you are saying. Perhaps I am just not seeing what you see, in regard to how it might support your theory.

    What all this boils down to is the inescapable fact that all our concepts of others are ultimately within our noggins. We do not even need someone to be physically present for us to think about them. Is it possible to have thoughts about purely imagined individuals who otherwise do not exist in reality? We can...

    I agree with everything that you have said here, regarding our concepts of others. However, our concepts do not negate one way or the other, the existence of that person.

    I can bring the concept of my mother into that steel box... but my mother still exists as a literal being.

    I can bring the concept of Obi-Wan with me into that steel box... but Obi does not exist except as a ficitonal being.

    Now, a physical steel box cannot keep Christ out. He is Spirit. He is within those who belong to Him... but He also exists without them. Just as someone can be a part of us, but also outside of us.

    I am arguing for a concept that makes sense and continues to dignify both the believer and the non-believer.

    I can see that you are trying for this.

    I am going to suggest that this concept that you are arguing for is going to be acceptable to many atheists, because it IS what they are already saying. God is a concept of the mind, but does not exist. What you seem to be trying to do is explain to the atheist that this is not a bad thing, and is in fact a good thing for that person. I appreciate your intent, and thought this statement was cute:

    Godly power without actually having to exist -- now that is overcoming an amazing deficit! (I really do mean that sincerely)

    However, lol... a person of faith cannot actually accept that ;)

    I can accept it when an atheist says that he/she sees no acceptable evidence for God. There is no conflict there. But there are some atheists who are offended by that also, as it may seem to imply to them that they are lacking something.

    Where we got in trouble as Witnesses was believing that our ability to please Jehovah God rested on unquestioned obedience to Christ's Brothers as represented by the Governing Body. In that model we wound up handing over our intellect to another who could abuse it for their own selfish interests.

    Absolutely agree with you here!

    So when I suggested to Tammy that is what her brain was stuggling with, her response was basically, no, no struggle at all. And I am suggesting that is great insight for us non-believers. It demonstrates a sincerity and not a purposeful avoidance of the conclusion God does not exist, for self-serving reasons.

    Thank you, Rawe.

    To Tammy, Christ exists, there is no question about it, even while she admits up front the knowledge of this is personal, spiritual and not externally accessible.

    Please define externally accessible.

    Because the knowledge of Christ's existence is available to anyone, and others know this and hear His voice as well. Verifying what one person testifies to as being true... at least to those who also experience the same thing. Using the spiritual 'tools' available.

    Please, Tammy, expand on this, since this could sound like I am able to speak to your views.

    I hope I have done this for you. There are a lot of concepts going on in this conversation now, so I may have missed touching on something. If so, please ask.

    Perhaps I should add something to this conversation now ;).

    My opinions are not always the same as what my Lord tells me. I defer to Him of course, but sometimes I need to 'see' it before I trust it.

    I'll give you one small example. A month or so ago I needed to find the story about the adulterous woman brought to Christ, and He ends up saying to the crowd, 'he who is without sin cast the first stone.' I wasn't on the computer, or I would have just googled it. Instead I needed to look it up in the actual bible. So I reasoned, this verse is one that some scholars believe has been added, and since scholars also conclude that Matt is derived from Mark, perhaps it is in Matthew.

    Now my Lord says to me (and I do mean says the word), "John."

    I heard Him, but did not attribute this to Him, and so did not listen.

    I look through Matthew, and of course do not find it.

    Then I think, perhaps it is actually Mark.

    My Lord says to me again, "John."

    I again ignore him, and look through Mark. Again I do not find the passage. And seriously, how stubborn am I, lol... I decide to look through Luke. (In my mind, the book of John is the most accurate, because the author of John is actually there, whereas Luke investigated after the fact... so according to my own reasoning, nothing would have later been added to John, it must have been to one of the other books - this being a good example of not always being able to rely upon our own reasoning, lol)

    This time I get the sense of a sigh (not an annoyed one, a patient one), and I hear from my Lord this time, "I have told you John. But if you must find it the hard way, then that is what you will do."

    Of course I kinda know by now that it is in John, but I look through Luke just the same... then go on and find the passage in John, that by now I of course know my Lord has been telling me is there.

    Just a small example.

    Peace, tammy
  • tec

    Tec, what i understand from what you are saying is that God exists because he is intelligible (although I may be wrong). If this is the case then this implies that God's existence is proved by reason and rationality to exist in himself and this would further suggest that the believer has an existence in himself which would then give both God and the believer a sense of moral freedom and autonomy.

    I'm not sure I understand what you're saying ; )

    He speaks and does... therefore He is alive and exists. I know this because I have heard Him (Christ) speak, and seen the results of Him doing, as well as seeing the truth in things that He has told me.

    Is that along the lines of what you thought I was saying?



  • cofty
    I know this because I have heard Him (Christ) speak, and seen the results of Him doing, as well as seeing the truth in things that He has told me.

    There was a time that I believed passionately that Jesus was involved in the minutiae of my life. I consulted him all the time, listened attentively for his direction and marvelled at the way he aways seemed to work out things for the best.

    Now as an atheist I see it for what it was - the internal converstations and vicissitudes of life.

  • tec

    The concept of God in our minds VS. The certainty of God's true existence and how he dwells within us . This truly is a fascinating debate.

    Lol, I suppose it is when you put it like that. I did not expect much of an audience.

    I'm not sure if you wanted opinions on those four quotes or not, but I must say that I did love this:

    If we think we can travel in time, co-exist with parallel galaxies, etc... then why can't there be a spiritual dimension?
    Yes! I love that! Peace, tammy

  • tec
    Believers are unable to conceptualise what would invalidate or identify their god as fake UNTIL they allow themselves to doubt.

    Q, I find this funny coming from you. Just because I believe it was from a conversation with you almost a couple of years ago that I did allow myself to examine something from a clean slate; no bias.

    I was very calm, and prepared to follow where the evidence led in a particular question about God and the universe, and the origins of life.

    It is just that my Lord is the One who gave me the answer, lol... and that kind of took care of that. I was not expecting Him to answer, and did not even think I was asking the question OF Him, but He did give me the answer. Or rather, He asked me a question that led me to the answer.

    This is the real reason why the number 1 universal teaching of religion is not love, it is faith, belief without question.

    And that is one of the very real differences between religion... and faith.



  • cofty
    It is just that my Lord is the One who gave me the answer, lol... and that kind of took care of that.

    Isn't it just as well scientists have a better method for determining truth than listening to self-affirming voices in their heads?

  • still thinking
    still thinking

    rawe..I am enjoying this too.

    I believe God exists, but only within the minds of believers .

    So using this logic...zeus existed...but only while his believers did. Once they all ceased to did Zeus.

  • still thinking
    still thinking

    Who is Maeve? Did you mean humbled tec?

  • tec

    Yes : )



  • Tater-T

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