Jwfacts-- More Lies But This Time About The Great Crowd (page 2)

EndofMysteries

I have no idea what your point is. But who are the great crowd? Rev 7:13-17 tells you

elderelite

Ohhhhh so you arnt actually going to answer my questions or any others, your just going to cut and paste crap.

LeavingWT: I LOVE your recommendation. Should he also refer them to www.Jehovahs-witness.net and provide them with his screenname so that they can see his eloquent statements made regarding www.jwfacts.com?

sabastious

Revelation 19: 1 - After this I heard what sounded like the roar of a great multitude in heaven shouting:

“Hallelujah!
Salvation and glory and power belong to our God,

The "great multitude" mentioned in Revelation 19:1 is the same as the "great multitude" mentioned in Revelation 7:9. The Watchtower doesn't teach this because it would mess with their bogus doctrine. The Watchtower are the liars, not JWFacts.

Page 272 of the Revelation book covers Revelation 19:1 and makes no mention of the obvious parallel between itself and Revelation 7:9.

Before the throne of God = heaven.

-Sab

Recovery

The scriptures are omitted for the sake of brevity. Here are the ten terms that jwfacts claims the WT uses in reference to the anointed only and therefore (since the great crowd are described with similar terms) must also refer to the great crowd.

1. "great crowd" (already shown to be used in various occassions to many groups of people)

2. "out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues" (these terms are also used to describe various peoples and ethnic groups throughout the Christian Greek scriptures)

3. "standing before (enopion) the throne" (terms used ambiguously throughout the scriptures)

4. "before (enopion) the Lamb" (I'll admit this is a unique usage but if there is an earthly class of faithful worshipers such an expression could [though not definitively] be used in reference to those individuals)

5. "dressed in white robes" (Revelation 7:14 says "And he said to me: “These are the ones that come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." As we can see the white robes symbolize the cleansing and repentance of Christ's followers by means of his ransom sacrifice. The term is by no means a 'conclusive description'.)

6. "crying with a loud voice, saying: "Salvation [we owe] to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb."" (I don't believe an explanation of this is necessary as it is obvious that all Christians, earthly or heavenly, would owe salvation to Jehovah and Jesus Christ)

7. "come out of the great tribulation" (well since the Great Tribulation occurs on the earth it is by no means conclusive that those who come out of the great tribulation must be in heaven)

8. "washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. (this is the same as point 5)

9. "rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple" (in a future post I will show conclusively that this statement does not necessitate the habitation of the great crowd in heaven either)

10. "One seated on the throne will spread his tent over them"(why does God spread his tent over those who are already dwelling among him, before his throne, in his presence in heaven?)

As we can see, the 10 points listed are by no means conclusive and definitive proof. I really do not see what was the point of the author's listing when there are so many uniform nouns and adjectives that describe many different groups of people throughout the Bible (especially the Hebrew Scriptures). Please note I am not asserting that every description or scripture (omitted) was not in reference to the anointed. I am merely asserting that such usage is by no means definitive and determinative.

Recovery

I will respond to a few points before continuing

NeverKnew asked what's my goal. My goal here is to help myself and other unwary/lurking JW's who have been temporarily mislead by the claims of ex JW's. By discussing Jwfacts I am going right to the core of pretty much every apostate argument which Jwfacts admitted to me was a contribution of many many individuals.

Elderelite asked a question. I am not ignoring you. I am not cutting and pasting anything (besides jwfacts own statements). I am typing all of this information as we speka. Your question/topic will be addressed in a future post. I am sorry if that the impression I gave off.

HintofLime merely tried to show us that Revelation must be incorrect since it describes the four corners of the earth as square, not realizing that these are symbolic and not to be taken literally but I figured that didn't merit a serious response.

mrsjones5 said I'm obsessed, but I could argue the members of this board are far more obsessed than I am when it comes to disproving the WT but that is neither here nor there.

EndofMysteries didn't get my point. My point is showing that the great crowd is not in heaven.

NeverKnew and leavingWT statements are merely promoting Jwfacts and JWN which I have no objection to as onlookers can see the errors I am pointing out.

sabastious merely repeated an argument that was already addressed in post 4.

I believed everyone has been addressed. Lurkers, please note how there has been no attempt at refuting my points but the usual chatter from JWN boards (of no real merit). But I can't say I expected anything different.

mrsjones5

Nothing new here folks

sabastious

You want to talk about ambiguous Bible connections? The Watchtower connecting the "great crowd" in Revelation 7:9 with the "other sheep" mentioned in John 10:16 is simply absurd. I have told you before and I will tell you again, you are just parroting Watchtower dogma which was soley created for bafoons such as yourself to take the ridicule instead of them. The leaders of the Watchtower get to live in their ivory tower and have their butts wiped, while people like you, on the other hand, get to blindly defend men you don't even know. All I can do is golfclap.

The bottom line is that this website is not full of victims of misinformation, YOU ARE, my friend and not from the internet, but by your religious leaders. The only person you are convincing right now is yourself and that's a fact.

I am not arguing that it is definitely the case, I am simply arguing is that it is by no means a conclusive line of reasoning.

You are right, it's not conclusive because any conclusion derived from the pages of the Bible is conjecture. We don't even have the original copies. But if someone wants to believe that the great crowd of Revelation 19 and 7 are the same, they have a perfectly reasonable argument and believe contrary to the WTBTS. The Watchtower subscribes to the doctrine that bestows them power, it's an obvious agenda on their part to artificially create a two class system, which is ANTI-CHRIST! Sheesh, get it through your skull dude, it's why you are here. Wake up already, you're like a mosquito. One mediator, one flock.

-Sab

Recovery

Yes, nothing but the usual from mrsjones5. I am simply waiting for cedar to show up so they can began their 'troll clock running' posts. And maybe they can give us an exposition on their favorite soups and desserts this time to divert the topic. Maybe even copy and paste articles from Wikipedia. It is obvious certain people are not interested in truth. I do not do this for those who don't want the truth, but for the sake of mislead and lurking JW's.

Recovery

More ad hominem attacks. More rhetoric. More repetition of the same argument already addressed in post 4. Hey, here's a challenge for you sebastious, why don't you address what I've written previously:

However, throughout the Christian Greek Scriptures this term (translated as "great crowd") describes ANY large group of individuals. You cannot use a common descriptive term (great crowd) and use it as the basis for concluding that the two scriptures are referring to the same group of persons. As the scriptures show the term is very ambiguous and can be used in a variety of contexts, referring to any large group of people, even in the same book. John, the very author of Revelation does so in his gospel. Therefore, it would be no different for Revelation to refer to different great crowds. I am not arguing that it is definitely the case, I am simply arguing is that it is by no means a conclusive line of reasoning.

Jwfacts-- More Lies But This Time About The Great Crowd

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