Jwfacts-- More Lies But This Time About The Great Crowd

by Recovery 278 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  Recovery

  Jwfacts has an article that explains why the great crowd must be in heaven. I am also aware that many of these are the same arguments that stemmed from the 'Awakenings at Bethel' so my statements are not simply attacks of jwfact's character (since these arguments are probably not original) but rather his copy and paste of what others have said instead of verifying it as 'fact' for himself.

  So here are jwfacts arguments:

  1. He shows that Russell and Rutherford (at some point) believed that the great crowd were in heaven.

  2. Each term that describes the Great Crowd of Revelation 7 is else used to described the anointed by the WT

  3. The use of NAOS and the so-called Watchtower cover up

  Argument 1: Jwfacts quotes numerous WT publications (obviously from before 1935) that show the belief from that time to be that the great crowd was in heaven. One specific quote would be from "Vindication Volume 3 p. 204 which says that the great crowd "must be spirit creatures."

  This is known as the "You Too Fallacy". Nizkor comments "this fallacy is committed when it is concluded that a person's claim is false because 1) it is inconsistent with something else a person has said.... The fact that a person makes inconsistent claims does not make any particular claim he makes false.

  What the WT has stated in the past (inconsistent or changed) has no bearing on the present doctrine about the great crowd. Before the plane is even ten feet off the ground, Jwfacts has already resorted to a misleading logical fallacy that attempts to paint an antagonistic view of the WT. Instead of using the Bible as his main and opening argument, the author shows he would rather take jabs at the WT (oh how unexpected). This pretentious use of the 'WT' as some authority/rather not an authority from the author's POV is extremely fallacious and unnecessary. It is a weak premise for his argument, especially coming from the almighty guru of ex JW websites. Continuing....
• 

  Scott77

  	"...Instead of using the Bible as his main and opening argument, the author shows he would rather take jabs at the WT (oh how unexpected)..."
  	Recovery

  Instead of using the Bible as his main and opening argument, the author [Recovery] shows he would rather take jabs at the Jwfacts (oh how unexpected).

  Scott77
• 

  NeverKnew

  Dude... Seriously...

  What's your goal...
• 

  Recovery

  This is what can be found at the top of the article:

  Bible:

  Revelation 19:1 - "After these things I heard what was as a loud voice of a great crowd in heaven"
  Revelation 7:9 - "look! a great crowd ... standing before the throne"

  Watchtower:

  "Consequently, those of the great crowd expect to remain on earth forever and to share in bringing it to a Paradise state. " - Watchtower 1980 August 15 p.17

  Another author wrote: "However, throughout the Christian Greek Scriptures this term describes ANY large group of individuals. For example, a large group of individuals that were disputing with the apostles of Christ are called "οχλον πολυν" at Mark 9:14. Also, when Judas Iscariot came to betray Christ on the night before his death, the text at Matthew 26:47 tells us that a "οχλος πολυς" came with him. John, the writer of the book of Revelation, in his Gospel of John describes a group of individuals that followed Jesus "because they were beholding the signs he was performing upon those who were ill" as a "οχλος πολυς" at John 6:2.

  It could be argued that the great crowd of Revelation 19 is composed of angels (as many other scriptures can be used in favor of this argument), but that is besides the point. You cannot use a common descriptive term (great crowd) and use it as the basis for concluding that the two scriptures are referring to the same group of persons. As the scriptures show the term is very ambiguous and can be used in a variety of contexts, referring to any large group of people, even in the same book. John, the very author of Revelation does so in his gospel. Therefore, it would be no different for Revelation to refer to different great crowds. I am not arguing that it is definitely the case, I am simply arguing is that it is by no means a conclusive line of reasoning.
• 

  elderelite

  Seriously dude....? Help me out. How do you take a "great crowd standing before the throne" and put them on EARTH? Id be curious to hear that....
• 

  leavingwt

  Please tell your friends at the Kingdom Hall about this discovery. They deserve the real truth.

  www.jwfacts.com
• 

  HintOfLime

  "Great crowd"... "other sheep"... symbols... visions.. dreams... prophesies... etc.

  "God's" attempts at communication with humans match 1-to-1 with the symptoms of dilusions, pychosis, and drug abuse.

  Funny that.

  - Lime
• 

  Recovery

  Next the author decides to examine Revelation 7 on a simply Biblical basis to decide that it "is obvious that the great crowd are in heaven". He starts from verse 9 but we will start from verse one so we can truly see the context and the setting of the vision that is being described.

  Revelation 7:1-3 "After this I saw four angels standing upon the four corners OF THE EARTH, holding tight the four winds OF THE EARTH, that no wind might blow UPON THE EARTH or UPON THE SEA or UPON ANY TREE 2 And I saw another angel ascending from the sunrising, having a seal of [the] living God; and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm THE EARTH and the sea, 3 saying: “Do not harm THE EARTH or THE SEA OR THE TREES, until after we have sealed the slaves of our God in their foreheads.”

  It is obvious to anyone without biased or preconceived interpretations that the emphasis in this vision is on the earth. The vision is centered around the earth and what will happen to it and those on it. Notice that it says these four winds will be released AFTER the 144,000 are sealed. Continuing..

  Revelation 7:4 "And I heard the number of those who were sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel.."

  Now this is significant. Notice that John does not saw 'I saw' or 'I was transferred into heaven' but he simply says 'I heard'. There is no change in setting. The focus and the center of the vision can still be placed on the earth. John simply records the numbers that he hears and continues describing what he sees. Please note this simple, yet vital distinction.

  Jwfacts now makes the argument that since the WT uses many of these terms (that describe the great crowd) in reference to the anointed that they must be the same. But is this really an argument of substantial merit? The author is merely arguing that 'because the WT believes certain terms refer to the anointed, that these terms used must refer to the anointed as well'. But this argument is fallacious and ridiculous.

  The author/many of the readers do not for one second hold the WT's description of the anointed (scripturally/otherwise) in any serious merit. To use this as an argument the author requiresthat the readers do the very opposite of what he is attempting to do with this article. That is: ' BELIEVE what the Watchtower says'.

  Now can anyone without bias/prejudice say that this a coherent and strong argument? I'll let you decide that. Now let's look at the 'common list of terms' that were presented.
• 

  HintOfLime

  Revelation 7:1-3 "After this I saw four angels standing upon the four corners OF THE EARTH, holding tight the four winds OF THE EARTH, that no wind might blow UPON THE EARTH or UPON THE SEA or UPON ANY TREE 2 And I saw another angel ascending from the sunrising, having a seal of [the] living God; and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm THE EARTH and the sea, 3 saying: “Do not harm THE EARTH or THE SEA OR THE TREES, until after we have sealed the slaves of our God in their foreheads.”

  Now can anyone without bias/prejudice say that this a coherent and strong argument? I'll let you decide that. Now let's look at the 'common list of terms' that were presented.

  Nope. It's not a strong argument - It's not coherent idea. Corners of the earth? The earth is a sphe... oh nevermind. You know what? Yes - the earth somehow has 4 corners. The earth is a flat square or rectangle.

  - Lime
• 

  mrsjones5

  Recovery you're obsessed.