Jwfacts-- More Lies But This Time About The Great Crowd (page 7)

Recovery

4 pages and still no rebuttal by jwfacts or any of the other members of this forum.

I am quite satisfied with the results. You are helping prove to lurking JW's that you are not only just a mere cut and paste of what others say, but that you can't substantiate the very arguments that are almost universally used by ex-JW's. And here I was thinking I was going to need to write a post about naos and the temple. But that is not even necessary as so many basic arguments have yet to be addressed. Here's just one for you, jwfacts. Can you address just this one?

1. The context and setting of Revelation 7, that never changed from earth to heaven.

rather be in hades

No crap arguments thrown out here. All of them from the Bible and a little thing called common sense.

the problem with this statement is mixing the bible and common sense. oil and water don't mix. neither does the bible and common sense.

the bible is a book. it's a story. it's a fairytale.

there's no factual basis a guy whose mom was a virgin walked around the sea of galillee miraculously curing people. there's so much factually inaccurate bs in the bible it's astounding. do you REALLY believe someone was swallowed whole by a fish for 3 days and WASN'T killed by

1. no oxygen

2. no food

3. not being digested by the fish/whale's gastric acid?

Just because I have not done so yet, does not mean I will not. It is something that requires extensive research and much time. And I think most JW's are more likely to be mislead by jwfacts arguments rather than a supposed Biblical inconsistency. So this has my priority.

JWs are being mislead by a group of liars in new york. the un controversy? the walsh trial? they ADMITTED to false prophecies. how many other "prophetic claims have they made that are wrong?

Will anyone address these points?

would love to...

1. The logical fallacy/double standard displayed when using the WT in your argument

no double standard at all. you can use someone else's words to expose the logical fallacies in their arguments. frankly, i'm not sure how you would be able to refute someone's statements WITHOUT referring to their previous statements.

taking a look at watchtower literature throughout the years, there's an astounding amount of lies and spin.

how did they get to 1914? the blood issues? organ transplants are cannibalism?

so how many people did the gb kill by coming up with THAT nonsense?

2. The use of the greek words that form the phrase "great crowd" being ambiguous and used in numerous circumstances, and thus not making an automatic connection of Revelation 7 and 19

this kinda goes back to how irrelevant the bible is. it is very clear that the bible is NOT some prophetic, factual book. i'm sure that sounded like a cop out to you since you believe in this stuff but let me say this...would you defend the language and arguments in a debunked science textbook while gnoring the fact that the book has no relevancy in reality? you'd might as well argue over the language written in cinderella.

3, 4, and 5 are all in the same vein. you're arguing and defending a book that has no basis in reality.

Or are we going to get more ad hominem attacks, more irrelevant hypothetical what if questions, and more attempts at sidetracking the issue into 607/1914/Biblical errancy/anything else to divert the issue at hand?

you might not like it, but the 607/1914 issue is very important.

1. it shows that the jws ARE teaching something that is FACTUALLY NOT TRUE

2. knowing that the central belief of jehovah's witnesses, the thing that supposedly makes them better than everyone else is wrong, then that cals into question EVERYTHING THEY TEACH.

3. with point 3 in mind, and an objective viewpoint, it's pretty easy to look at the inconsistencies of the jehovah's witnesses from inception and realize that they're just as full of crap as any other religion.

i'm sure you think you've scored some sort of "points", but the reality is, you didn't. you can argue scripture all day long and the reality is...your bible is irrelevant.plain and simple. so even though that particular argument might have been improper, it doesn't matter bc frankly the topic is irrelevant.

the bible...is not real.

watson

You're a good witness Recovery.

Recovery

Okay okay okay okay rather be in hades. We get it. The Bible is false and just a book of myths/lies. I will commence my weeping and groaning as I patiently wait for jwfacts to answer just one simple question.

tootired2care

You're a good witness Recovery.

A darn good creative field service time counter too. Gotta get off to good start counting time for the new service year.

rather be in hades

what question would that be?

Recovery

Here's the information I presented:

Revelation 7:1-3 "After this I saw four angels standing upon the four corners OF THE EARTH, holding tight the four winds OF THE EARTH, that no wind might blow UPON THE EARTH or UPON THE SEA or UPON ANY TREE 2 And I saw another angel ascending from the sunrising, having a seal of [the] living God; and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm THE EARTH and the sea, 3 saying: “Do not harm THE EARTH or THE SEA OR THE TREES, until after we have sealed the slaves of our God in their foreheads.”

It is obvious to anyone without biased or preconceived interpretations that the emphasis in this vision is on the earth. The vision is centered around the earth and what will happen to it and those on it. Notice that it says these four winds will be released AFTER the 144,000 are sealed. Continuing..

Revelation 7:4 "And I heard the number of those who were sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel.."

Now this is significant. Notice that John does not say 'I saw' or 'I was transferred into heaven' but he simply says 'I heard'. There is no change in setting. The focus and the center of the vision can still be placed on the earth. John simply records the numbers that he hears and continues describing what he sees. Please note this simple, yet vital distinction.

Question: How is the great crowd in heaven when the setting is the earth?

Recovery

Oh yeah and just for the record, I didn't cut and paste that from a JW apologist book. I actually did my own research and did my own examination.

rather be in hades

question...is the great crowd even a real thing?

actually, better question...why did the watchtower admit to "erroneous statements and mistakes"?

a follow up question...doesn't that simple fact call into question everything else they are teaching?

why did the jws teach the end of the system would come in 1914? or 1925? or 1940s? 0r 1975? did jehovah change his time table?

better yet, can you explain why hayden covington, faithful witness until death and the lead council for the organization for many court cases would say this? (covington is on the stand btw, these are taken directly from court transcripts and he is the one being questioned.)

Q. Assume from me that it was promulgated as authoritative by the Society that Christ's Second Coming was in 1874?
A. Taking that assumption as a fact, it is a hypothetical statement.

Q. That was the publication of false prophesy?
A. That was the publication of a false prophesy, it was a false statement or an erronious statement in fulfilment of a prophesy that was false or erronious.

Q. And that had to be believed by the whole of Jehovah's Witnesses?
A. Yes, because you must understand we must have unity, we cannot have disunity with a lot of people going every way, an army is supposed to march in step.

Q. Back to the point now. A false prophesy was promulgated?
A. I agree that.

Q. It had to be accepted by Jehovah's Witnesses?
A. That is correct.

Q. If a member of Jehovah's Witnesses took the view himself that that prophesy was wrong and said so he would be disfellowshipped?
A. Yes, if he said so and kept persisting in creating trouble, because if the whole organisation believes one thing, even though it be erronious and somebody else starts on his own trying to put his ideas across then there is disunity and trouble, there cannot be harmony, there cannot be marching. When a change comes it should come from the proper source, the head of the organisation, the governing body*, not from the bottom upwards, because everybody would have ideas, and the organisation would disintegrate and go in a thousand different directions. Our purpose is to have unity.

Q. Unity at all costs?
A. Unity at all costs , because we believe and are sure that Jehovah God is using our organisation, the governing body of our organisation to direct it, even though mistakes are made from time to time.

Q. And unity based upon an enforced acceptance of false prophecy?
A. That is conceded to be true.

so once again, why put faith in an organization that is obviously spreading false prophecies? they even admitted it, under oath, on the stand, for the world to hear

rather be in hades

I actually did my own research and did my own examination.

that is very commendable. judging by the posts, that took quite a bit of time.

i think though, before you delve further into that research, you should question whether the bible is factually accurate bc if it isn't, then you are wasting your time trying to defend something that is indefensible

Jwfacts-- More Lies But This Time About The Great Crowd

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