Sarcasm does not play well on any discussion board. To be done well, we need to hear the tone of voice and the facial expression. Without that, the intent is so easily misread. And yes, it will annoy people.
Jwfacts-- More Lies But This Time About The Great Crowd
by Recovery 278 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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tootired2care
Recovery, I thought you might find this excerpt interesting. This is from the book "Crisis of Conscience" pages 30-31; Just prior to being a member of the governing body, Ray Franz was on the writting team for the book Aid to bible understanding, what he acknowledges here is that "there might be more than one way of seeing certain matters" including the texts that are used to support the "Great Crowd" doctrine.
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Charles Ploeger and I made a trip to Brown University in Provi- dence, Rhode Island, to interview Professor Abraham Sachs, a specialist in ancient cuneiform texts, particularly those containing astronomical data. We wanted to see if we could obtain any information that would indicate any flaw or weakness whatsoever in the astronomical data presented in many of the texts, data that indicated our 607 B.C.E. date was incorrect. In the end, it became evident that it would have taken a virtual conspiracy on the part of the ancient scribes—with no conceivable motive for doing so—to misrepresent the facts if, indeed, our figure was to be the right one. Again, like an attorney faced with evidence he cannot overcome, my effort was to discredit or weaken confidence in the witnesses from ancient times who presented such evidence, the evidence of historical texts relating to the Neo-Babylonian Empire.
In themselves, the arguments I presented were honest ones, but I know that their intent was to uphold a date for which there was no historical support. So, despite our heightened appreciation of certain principles, the Aid book nonetheless contained many examples of our efforts to be loyal to the Society’s teachings. In many respects, what we learned through our experience did more for us than it did for the publication. Still, the Aid to Bible Understanding book did serve to quicken interest in the Scriptures among many Witnesses. Perhaps its tone, its approach, the effort put forth by most of the writers to avoid dogmatism, to acknowledge that there might be more than one way of seeing certain matters, not to make more of something than the evidence honestly allowed—these things may have been of principal benefit, though in these too we certainly fell short at times, allowing preconceived ideas to control, failing to hold as firmly as we should have to the Scriptures themselves. I know this was true in my own case in preparing such subjects as the “Appointed Times of the Nations,” “Faithful and Discreet Slave,” and “Great Crowd,” all of which contain arguments designed to uphold current teachings of the Watch Tower publications. Simply because in my mind those teachings were then equivalent to “fact,” I found myself doing what the “Foreword” I later wrote said was not intended. On page 6 under the heading “Its Aim,” the words appear, “Aid to Bible Understanding is not intended to be a doctrinal commentary or an interpretative work.” Also, that whatever application was made of figurative and symbolic expressions, this was not done “arbitrarily or to conform to a creed.” In the main, that was true. But ingrained beliefs some- times overrode our efforts to hold to that standard.
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Leolaia
Here is a problem with the interpretation that the great crowd are in heaven, as opposed to the earth....Notice the repetitious use of the modal verb "will". If we interpret the great crowd as already having entered heaven and thus already received the gift of immortality upon such entry, then we have a problem. They are already in God's temple and in the midst of the throne and yet the scripture says God will spread his tent over them. They are immortal and are not affected by a physical realm, yet the scripture says "they will hunger or thirst or be beat down by the sun's scorching heat no more." The Lamb will shepherd them and he will guide them to the fountains of waters of life. Now ask yourself: How can the anointed, immortal anointed ones who are not subject to the physical realm and its effects experience these things in a FUTURE SENSE. How can those who are immortal be guided to the fountains of waters of life? How will they 'no longer hunger or thirst or experience the heat from the sun' anymore when they have HEAVENLY, SPIRITUAL, IMMORTAL BODIES? How WILL God wipe out every tear from their eyes when we take all of these things into account?
Recovery....The phrases "before the throne" and "in the temple" throughout Revelation have consistent heavenly reference (that is, prior to the "new heavens and new earth" after the millennium). One could also cite 3:12: "He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple (en tò naò) of my God, and he will not go out from it (exelthè exò) anymore; and I will write on him the name of My God". Here clearly "in the temple" means "inside" because the one who is granted temple service "will not go out from it". The language in ch. 7 describe the multitude in heaven as clearly as anything else that is part of the heavenly temple.
Tense is a pretty weak basis to dismiss this evidence. And your argument seems to be based on a particular understanding of the verb's tense which seems to be based more on English ("will" is a modal in English, whereas mood in Greek has nothing to do with future vs. present but whether the verb is indicative or not). So let me first mention that your point is not really valid from the view of Greek grammar. It presumes that the situation discussed in the v. 15-17 pertains solely to the future with the tense precluding any assumption that those situations have already commenced. The verbs in v. 15-17 (with the possible exception of poimainei ) are in the future indicative. This tense has a range of uses. One of these is the progressive future which "affirms that an action will be in progress in future time" (E. D. W. Burton, Syntax of the Moods and Tenses of New Testament Greek, 1898, §60). Another is a cohorative use of the future indicative that is used for commands and which has a sort of timeless reference; this use is generally limited to OT quotations as it reflects Hebrew usage (cf. Matthew 4:10, Luke 4:4, etc.).
A good example of the future indicative used to indicate an action already commenced can be found in Philippians 1:16: "In this I rejoice (khairò, present indicative), indeed, I will [continue to] rejoice (kharèsomai, future indicative)". Paul's rejoicing is not something that starts in the future; it has already commenced and will continue in the future. Earlier in the same chapter Paul wrote that "the one who began (ho enarxamous, aorist participle) a good work in you will perfect (epitelesei, future indicative) it until the day of Christ Jesus" (v. 6); again the activity is not initiated in the future but rather continues into the future. Similarly, Jesus says in the Fourth Gospel: " I have made you known (egnòrisa, aorist indicative) to them, and will [continue to] make you known ( gnòris ò, future indicative) " (John 17:26). Here is an example from Revelation: " The kingdom of the world has become (egeneto, aorist indicative) the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ; and he will reign (basileusei, future indicative) forever and ever". The Lord's rule has already commenced (hence the aorist), so the future indicates that it will continue into the future eternally (e.g. "...he will [continue to] reign forever and ever"). So Greek does allow the future indicative to be used the way it is used in 7:15-17 to indicate actions in progress in the future whether they commence in the future or not.
The most important thing to recognize here is that usage of the future indicative in the passage under discussion is due to intertextual allusion. The Greek in Revelation is filled with solecisms reflecting underlying Semitic interference, and some of that is due to OT allusion (in fact Revelation has the highest density of OT intertextuality in the NT). Verses 15-17 here combine clauses and phrases taken directly from Psalm 23:1-2, Isaiah 9:10, 25:8, 49:10, Ezekiel 34:23, 37:27 where the future verb tenses in the Greek of v. 16-17 correspond to the imperfect verb in the original Hebrew . So the use of the future indicative occurs here because it appeared in the author's source material (via the LXX which often follows Hebrew tenses, cf. Psalm 103:6 LXX [104:6 MT] where the Greek uses the future to render the Hebrew imperfect even though the reference is to the past in the Hebrew, not the future), where from the perspective of the prophet it strictly referred to the future. For the author the situation has already commenced since the matyred dead were gathered into the heavenly temple (in both ch. 6 and 7), so they were already in the divine presence and experiencing a heavenly existence. But since the usage of the future indicative was pretty loose, referring both to situations that commence in the future and situations that persist into the future, the tenses in the OT source texts were not altered. The first example of the future indicative suggests a situation persisting into the future: "They are ( eisin, present indicative ) before the throne of God and serve ( latreuousin, present indicative ) him day and night in his temple, and he who sits on the throne will shelter ( skènòsei, future indicative ) them with his presence". Here the sense of skènòsei may easily be "will [continue to] shelter". Next the situations in v. 16 apply well to the heavenly temple as it is described in Revelation. It is true that it is only after the millennium when the New Jerusalem comes down to the "new earth" when the river of the water of life and the trees of life are described, but it was the general belief that the paradise of Eden was in heaven (cf. 2 Corinthians 12:2, Greek Life of Adam and Eve 37:5, 40:1, Testament of Abraham 20:10-14, 2 Enoch 8:1-3; cf. Revelation 2:7), and New Jerusalem was conceived as a heavenly city elsewhere (Galatians 4:25-26, Hebrews 11:16, 12:22), and in 22:1 the river of the water of life is described as "flowing from the throne of God and the Lamb", so the martyred dead before the throne had access to the living waters. More to the point, hunger and thirst are experiences of the fleshly body, so regardless of whether one has been resurrected or not, one does not experience hunger or thirst after leaving the body at death. Also "the city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light" (21:23), and this surely was already the case with the heavenly temple where God was enthroned. And the shepherding done by the Lamb in v. 17 occurs whenever he is with his flock; the multitude gathered into the temple would implicitly be shephered by the Lamb. So I do not agree that all these would strictly apply to the situation after New Jerusalem comes down to the "new earth". There were matryrs already gathered into the temple (ch. 6), so they would experience heavenly life prior to their resurrection.
BTW, as an aside, the MS tradition of v. 17 has poimanei (future indicative) in the majority tradition but poimainei (present indicative) in a minority of texts. Although the latter is the lectio difficilior, the majority reading is preferred in critical editions because the lectio difficilior is usually not preferred if it produces difficult syntax. But as mentioned before, Revelation was written in rather bad Greek and the grammatical problems in the book (due to Semitic interference to a great extent) are extensive and most agree that at least many of these grammatical problems were corrected in later MSS. The issue here, the shift back and forth between tenses, is quite common in Revelation. Examples of shifting between the present and future can be found in 1:7, 25, 2:22-23, 3:9, 17:12-14 (cf. Hosea 4:10, 9:3 LXX, Zechariah 2:13 LXX). When this shifting occurs in Greek the present indicative usually renders a Hebrew perfect participle. Some examples include present indicative katheudeis = perfect participle šokeb in Genesis 28:13 LXX, present indicative likma = perfect participle zoreh in Ruth 3:2 LXX, present indicative katoikeis = perfect participle yošeb in Ezekiel 12:2 LXX, present indicative poiei = perfect participle `abed in Daniel 4:35-Th, etc. When we examine the intertext for Revelation 7:17, the present indicative poimainei corresponds to the perfect participle ro`eh in Ezekiel 34:23 ; this correspondence with the Hebrew might support the originality of poimainei ( poimanei reflecting contextual smoothing for sake of consistency and/or influence from the LXX rendering ).
Finally, I would point out that it is a bit of a false dilemma to oppose the belief in resurrection with the belief in post-mortem heavenly existence as an incorporeal soul. This post-mortem existence is clearly described in ch. 6.
Revelation 6:9-11: "When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar (i.e. in the heavenly temple) the souls of those who had been slain (psukhas tòn esphagmenòn) because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. They called out in a loud voice, 'How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?' Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed".
That these souls were waiting for vengeance means that they were in the intermediate state between martyrdom and resurrection; the full number is then gathered in heaven as "an innumerable great crowd" (7:9-10, 19:1-2), who have perished in the "great tribulation" (cf. 13:7, 15-17), and their deaths are then avenged in 19:11-21, 20:1-3 when all those who persecuted the Christians perish and are imprisoned. Their resurrection is related later in ch. 20: "I saw the souls of those who were beheaded (psukhas tòn pepelekismenòn) for the witness of Jesus and for the word of God ... and they came to life (ezèsan) and reigned with Christ for a thousand years" (20:4). In both cases, the word used to refer to a dead person in their intermediate state between death and resurrection was "soul" (psukhè).
This is consistent with Jewish beliefs about resurrection. As for the Essenes, Hippolytus states that "the idea of the resurrection (anastaseòs) has strength among them for they acknowledge both that the flesh will rise again (tèn sarka anastèsesthai), and that it will be immortal, in the same manner as the soul is already immortal (èdè athanatos estin hè psukhè). And they maintain that the soul, when seperated in the present life, departs into one place, which is well ventilated and full of light where, they say, it rests until judgment" (Adversus Haereses 9.26-27). As for the Pharisees, "these likewise acknowledge that there is a resurrection of flesh (sarkos anastasin), and that the soul is immortal (psukhòn athanaton), and that there will be a judgment and conflagration, and that the righteous will be imperishable (aphthartous), but that the wicked will be punished forever in unquenchable fire" (9.28). But in the case of the Sadducees, "they deny that there is a resurrection, not only of flesh but they also suppose that the soul does not endure (psukhèn mè diamenein). It is only life, and it is on account of this that man has been created. However, the idea of the resurrection is fulfilled in this: in dying and leaving behind children upon the earth. But after death one expects to suffer nothing, either bad or good. For there will be a dissolution both of soul and body (lusin kai psukhés kai sòmatos), and man passes into non-existence, similarly also with the material of the animal kingdom" (9.29). Josephus also referred to a heavenly intermediate state in describing resurrection: "Those who exit from life in accordance with the law of nature and repay the obligation received from God, when the one who has given it chooses to receive it, theirs is eternal fame, their houses and families secured, their souls remain pure and obedient, having been allotted by God the holiest region of heaven, from which at the revolution of the ages they return again to inhabit undefiled bodies. But as for those whose hands have raged against themselves, darker Hades receives their souls and God, their father, visits upon their posterity the outrageous pride of their fathers" (Bellum Judaicum 3.374-376). We may compare with this the Holyadot Scroll from Qumran which praises God by saying that "from Sheol of Abaddon you have lifted me up to an eternal height ...And I know that there is hope for someone you fashioned out of dust for an everlasting community. The depraved spirit you have purified from great offense so that he can take a place with the host of the holy ones, and can enter in communion with the assembly of the sons of heaven" (1QH 11:19-22).
Paul clearly conceives of an intermediate state between death and resurrection. He used a clothing metaphor to refer to the body, referring to one's fleshly body as "our earthly tabernacle dwelling" (2 Corinthians 5:1), in which "we are in this tabernacle" (v. 4); cf. also "I am in this tabernacle" in 2 Peter 1:13. This word "tabernacle" (skènè) to refer to the body was common in Greek philosophy, particularly Pythagoreanism and Platonism. Paul also says in 2 Corinthians 5:4 that "when we are in this tabernacle we groan out of being burdened (baroumenoi)"; similarly compare Plato, Phaedo 81C where the physical body is said to be baru "heavy", embrithes "burdensome", and geòdes "earthly". When one is alive, one is "at home in the body" (2 Corinthians 5:6), "living in flesh" (Philippians 1:22), or "remaining in flesh" (v. 23). Death is construed as a departure from this tabernacle of the body, or something akin to the removing of clothes, e.g. "shortly I must put off (apothesis) my tabernacle" (2 Peter 1:14). Paul refers to death as what makes one "be away from the body" (2 Corinthians 5:8), or "depart (analusai) and be with Christ" (Philippians 1:22-23), and even in a vision one can be "outside of the body (ektos tou sòmatos)" (2 Corinthians 12:2). These statements closely resemble those in Greek philosophy and early Jewish literature. Pseudo-Hippocrates (De Septimanis, 52.22) wrote that at death "the soul leaves the tabernacle of the body (apoleipousa hè psukhè to tou sòmatos skènos)" and similar statements can be found in Timaeus Locrus 104D and Pseudo-Plato, Axiochus 366A. Another appearance of the expression in Jewish literature can be found in 4 Baruch 6:6 (first century AD) which refers to one's "fleshly dwelling" (to sarkikò oikò) as a "tabernacle" (to skènòmati) and when one dies God will "take you out of your tent (arei se ek tou skènòmatos sou)". Philo of Alexandria (De Somniis 1.122) also used oikos "dwelling, home" (the word Paul uses in 2 Corinthians 5) to refer to the body, saying that "the body is an abode bound up by nature with the soul (ton sumphua tès psukhès oikon to sòma)". Paul however avoids using the word "soul" (psukhè) to refer to the person who departs the body at death; this usage however is found in the two passages in Revelation mentioned earlier. Now Paul did not believe in natural immortality without resurrection, and so he refers to resurrection as a reclothing of a person with new clothing or tabernacle or house. He refers to resurrection as "putting on incorruption" or "putting on immortality" (1 Corinthians 15:53-54), as "being clothed such that life would swallow up mortality" (2 Corinthians 5:4), as being "clothed with our heavenly dwelling" (v. 2). But in between the two, there is an intermediate state, the state of being "naked" (gumnoi) or "unclothed" (ekdusasthai), as he states in 2 Corinthians 5:2-4). Plato similarly used the word gumnos to refer to the nature of the soul's existence after death (Cratylus 403, Gorgias 523). Now for those who are changed at the moment of the general resurrection, there is no intermediate state; one is changed instantly (1 Corinthians 15:52-53). But if one dies prior to the resurrection, then one has to await resurrection and therefore experience a state between death and resurrection. Paul described this as a departure from the body into Christ's presence in heaven: "I desire to depart and be with Christ which is better by far but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the flesh" (Philippians 1:22-23), "As long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord ... I prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord" (2 Corinthians 5:6-8). This embodies the same idea expressed by Philo of Alexandria who wrote that "it is not possible for one who is dwelling in the body (katoikounta en sòmati), in a race that is mortal, to be united with God (theò suggenesthai), but only he whom God delivers from that prisonhouse" (Legum Allegoriarum 3.42).
Of course, it should not be assumed that the conceptualization of the afterlife by the author of Revelation was identical to that of Paul.....there is a lot of variation in early sources. One is reminded of the experience of Enoch: "And Gabriel carried me up, like a leaf carried by the wind. He moved me along and put me in front of the face of the Lord...And the Lord said to the angel Michael: Go and extract Enoch from his earthly clothing. And anoint him with my delightful oil, and put him into the clothes of my glory. And so Michael did, just as the Lord had said to him. He anointed and clothed me, and I looked at myself and I had become like one of the glorious ones, and there was no observable difference" (2 Enoch 21:5, 22:8-10).
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Heaven
And just so we don't forget or have to go looking it up ... for those who wish to check it out and bookmark the website... it's:
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Recovery
I cannot promise I can get everything answered to/replied to within the 24 hour period as I originally intended, so I retract my earlier statement. However I am going to go back thru this thread and answer all unanswered points of substance. Please be mindful of how heavy a task this is. I'm guessing it will take me at least 30 minutes to comprehend Leolaia's points, research them, and then just begin to respond.
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rather be in hades
you could at least attempt to respond to why your spirit directed organization is appointing child molestors as elders. enquiring minds want to know
edit: and i would consider this to be very substatntial because IT ACTUALLY HAPPENS AND THESE ARE FACTS UNCONTESTED BY THE WATCHTOWER SOCIETY
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King Solomon
Recovery said:
I'm guessing it will take me at least 30 minutes to comprehend Leolaia's points, research them, and then just begin to respond.
"30 minutes?" Wow, do you really think you can learn ancient Hebrew and Greek, plus research the historical context of the passages that quickly?
I dare say SHE spent 30 minutes on it, and she's had much more experience (as a historian with an interest in ANE) researching these things than you.
Well, the good news is you always can ask Leo to explain anything you don't understand (as long as you ask her nicely, and don't try to edumacate (sic) her).
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tootired2care
My question is how much of that 30 minutes is spent praying for Holy Spirit? LOL...
BTW Recovery, what do you think of Ray Franz comments above regarding the doctrines "Great Crowd" etc.? It doesn't quite sound like Holy Spirit made doctrinal support a slam dunk did it? Now why is that?
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rather be in hades
that's a helluva lot of holy spirit he's gonna need. prolly more than 30 minutes lmao.
i saw that passage and my eyes went cross eyed lol
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Leolaia
I did spend more than 30 minutes on that post FWIW. (I love searching in the Logos Platform ... ([field bible, content] <af-morph+he ~ Vq?v?????>) ANDEQUALS ([field bible, content] <lbs-morph+el ~ VP?I????>) .... that gives you all the examples of where the present indicative in the LXX corresponds to a perfect participle in the Hebrew....1,268 hits)