Jwfacts-- More Lies But This Time About The Great Crowd

by Recovery 278 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  jonathan dough

  What the WT has stated in the past (inconsistent or changed) has no bearing on the present doctrine about the great crowd

  Actually, it bears directly on WT doctrine. He is fully aware of present Great Crowd teaching. The past is used to illustrate the fact that JWs do not have the truth, never have had the truth, and peddle falsehoods. It impeaches their credibility. More than any other religion on earth, JWs are inconsistent in their teachings. They are false prophets. Their false teachings are demon inspired. And the proof is overwhelming. It staggers the imagination that a reasonable adult can believe in what they peddle as the truth.

  The degree to which they constantly change doctrine, and then cover up their teachings, is proof that they do not have God's favor.

  http://www.soul.host-ed.me/false-prophets/index.html

  http://144000.110mb.com/index.html

  Jwfacts has buried the Watchtower with their own false facts. He has exposed them for what they are.
• 

  MrFreeze

  "Ya gotta pay the troll toll to get into this boy's hole. Ya gotta pay the troll toll to get in."

  
• 

  jonathan dough

  Is the Great Crowd standing on earth in an approved condition as the Watchtower incorrectly teaches? Absolutely not.

  The Great Crowd of Revelation 7:9 standing before God’s throne in heaven and before the Lamb is not standing on earth merely in an ‘approved condition’ but is in heaven contrary to the Jehovah's Witnesses' teachings. [Home]

  First, Revelation 7:9 provides: “After these things I saw, and, look, a great crowd which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb ….” As with the Great Crowd, Revelation 14:1 also has the 144,000 standing in heaven with the Lamb, Jesus Christ. “And I saw, and, look! The Lamb standing upon Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand.”

  The Greek verb histemi - to stand or standing - is used for both groups of individuals, but whereas the 144,000 are regarded as physically (as spiritual creatures) standing in the direct presence of the Lamb in heaven, the Jehovah’s Witnesses believe the Great Crowd on the other hand are actually on earth and stand only metaphorically before God; they are standing in an approved condition, or position, in the sight of God only. The Jehovah's Witnesses are aware of their conundrum.

  This poses the question: if the “great crowd” are persons who gain salvation and remain on earth, how could they be said to be ‘standing before God’s throne and before the Lamb’? (Re 7:9) The position of ‘standing’ is sometimes used in the Bible to indicate the holding of a favored or approved position in the eyes of one in whose presence the individual or group stands. (Ps 1:5; 5:5; Pr 22:29, AT; Lu 1:19). In fact, in the previous chapter of Revelation, “the kings of the earth and the top-ranking ones and the military commanders and the rich and the strong ones and every slave and every free person” are depicted as seeking to hide themselves “from the face of the One seated on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb, because the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?” Re 6:15-17; compare Lu 21:36). It thus appears that the “great crowd” is formed of those persons who have been preserved during that time of wrath and who have been able to “stand” as approved by God and the Lamb. (Insight, 997).

  However, it is noteworthy that the definition of histemi (standing or to stand) does not contain the notion of a ‘favored or approved position’ or condition according to the entry for histemi or a derivative paristemi, in Vine’s Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words (Vine’s Greek Dictionary). And as to its application at Revelation 6:15-17, which they cite, those depicted as hiding themselves are about to be destroyed, so they can hardly be said to be standing or seeking to stand in an "approved condition" before God. Other translations render the word “withstand.” (NAB).

  Secondly, the Great Crowd cannot be standing in an approved condition on earth because Revelation 9:1-6 details the account of the Fifth Trumpet where locusts, given the power of scorpions, are instructed to torment and harm all those on earth who do not have the “seal of God on their foreheads.”

  1 And the fifth angel blew his trumpet. And I saw a star that had fallen from heaven to the earth, and the key of the pit of the abyss was given him. 2 And he opened the pit of the abyss, and smoke ascended out of the pit as the smoke of a great furnace, and the sun was darkened, also the air, by the smoke of the pit. 3 And out of the smoke locusts came forth upon the earth; and authority was given them, the same authority as the scorpions of the earth have. 4 And they were told to harm no vegetation of the earth nor any green thing nor any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads. 5 And it was granted the [locusts], not to kill them, but that these should be tormented five months, and the torment upon them was as torment by a scorpion when it strikes a man. 6 And in those days the men will seek death but will by no means find it, and they will desire to die but death keeps fleeing from them. (Rev. 9:1-6 NWT).

  According to the Jehovah’s Witnesses only the 144,000 have the seal of God on their foreheads, not the Great Crowd or anyone else.

  2 And I saw another angel ascending from the sunrising, having a seal of [the] living God; and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying: “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until after we have sealed the slaves of our God in their foreheads.” 4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel:…. (Rev. 7:2-4 NWT)

  Because the torment on the Great Crowd and others is to be so great that they will seek death it is difficult to imagine that the Great Crowd is standing on earth in an approved condition before God.

  Third, one of the twenty-four elders in heaven upon seeing the Great Crowd comments “where did they come from?” (Rev. 7:13), which suggests they arrived from someplace else, namely earth.

  Fourth, the Jehovah’s Witnesses deny the Great Crowd’s presence in heaven because “Revelation does not say of them, as it does of the 144,000 that they are bought from the earth” to be with Christ on heavenly Mount Zion. Rev 14:1-3.” (Reasoning, 167) But the Jehovah’s Witnesses are reading Scripture too narrowly and assume that the Great Crowd and 144,000 are separate. If, as mentioned above, a strong argument can be made that the 144,000 and the Great Crowd are the same - a qualitative identification of that large multitude - then the Great Crowd has indeed been bought from the earth because they are the 144,000 and represent all Christian people, which is the view taken by the Roman Catholic Church (Revelation 14:4, notes NAB).

  Furthermore, it is not the 144,000 alone who were ransomed or bought by Jesus’ blood. The Jehovah’s Witnesses distinguish the Great Crowd from the 144,000 by the fact that the Great Crowd were of all nations, tribes, peoples and tongues. But according to Revelation 5:9 this includes the 144,000 who also are of all nations, tribes, peoples and tongues. (Reasoning, 168).

  9 And they sing a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, because you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought persons for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10 and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.” (Rev. 5:9 NWT).

  Lastly, Revelation 7:15 makes it abundantly clear that the Great Crowd, their robes also washed by the blood of Christ, is in heaven because that is where God’s temple and his throne are; the Great Crowd is seen in His temple where they worship Him day and night.

  15 That is why they are before the throne of God; and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne will spread his tent over them. (Rev. 7:15 NWT).

  The psalmist at Psalm 11:4 tells us where God’s temple is and where his throne is, and by virtue of Revelation 7:15 we know where the Great Crowd stands worshiping the Almighty, namely, in heaven.

  “Jehovah is in his temple,
  Jehovah - in the heavens is his throne.”

  http://144000.110mb.com/144000/index.html
• 

  isaacaustin

  The WT errors around the turn of the century are actually quite relevant. Since (they teach) Jesus chose them and sent them thru a cleansing Babylonish captivity in 1918, and then not only freed them in 1919 but appointed them head of his earthly affairs, it makes all the difference in the world their errors during that time frame.
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  jonathan dough

  Because the earth shall be destroyed, the resurrected, and the Great Crowd, cannot be ruled over by the 144,000 from heaven[Home]
  
  The Greek word basileuo “to reign,” does not only mean to “rule over a people.” It is often used as metaphor, such as to “reign in life” (Rom. 5:17) where ‘shall reign in life’ indicates the activity of life in fellowship with Christ in His sovereign power, reaching its fullness hereafter; 1 Cor. 4:8…” (Vine’s, 52). One can also reign over sin (Rom. 6:12). Grace can also reign (Rom. 5:21). With this in mind it does not automatically or logically follow that there must be someone over whom the 144,000 reign on earth in the same way that contemporary governments rule over a people in today’s world.
  
  As a matter of fact, even though the Jehovah's Witnesses claim that the Bible does not tell us what the 144,000 will do after the thousand year reign is over, Revelation 22:3,4 informs us that God's servants will worship him and "shall reign forever and ever." But reign over who? They claim that at that time no one will stand between God and man, most certainly not Jesus (Insight, 170); the kingdom will have been handed over, death will be no more and man will be forever perfect.
  
  But if that is true the word "reign" cannot mean to rule over humans on earth, especially on an earth destined for fire and complete destruction which is made clear by 2 Peter 3:10,11: "But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a mighty roar and the elements will be dissolved by fire and the earth and everything in it will be found out. ... everything is to be dissolved this way," (NAB; "Total destruction is assumed (11)," notes 3,10). "...the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat" (2 Peter 3:12). "But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men" (2 Peter 3:7). Peter's warning reemphasized Zephaniah's warning, where the ancient prophet transmitted the Almighty's words, "I will utterly consume all things from off the face of the ground, saith Jehovah. I will consume man and beast; I will consume the birds of the heavens, and the fishes of the sea, and the stumbling blocks with the wicked; and I will cut off man from off the face of the ground, saith Jehovah" (Zephaniah 1:2,3)

  Complete destruction of man on earth is intended. " Their blood will be poured out like dust and their entrails like dung. 18 Neither their silver nor their gold will be able to save them on the day of the LORD’s wrath.” In the fire of his jealousy the whole earth will be consumed, for he will make a sudden end of all who live on the earth (Zephaniah 1:17, 18). The Jehovah's Witnesses theory that they alone, their great crowd, will survive Armageddon and be ruled from heaven by the 144,000 is simply not in accord with Scripture.
  
  Granted, the Jehovah's Witnesses don't believe the earth will be destroyed and base this teaching in large part on Psalm 37:29 where the psalmist wrote, "The just will possess the land (earth) and live in it forever." However, the earth "wears out like a garment (Isa. 51:6), so the word "forever" is hyperbole, and nothing here indicates that there won't be a hiatus, or break, in the earth's habitation. Psalm 37:29 does not say man will inherit the earth continuously without interruption, and Revelation 21:10,27 suggests that reconstituted, glorified man, without the warts, will come back down out of heaven sometime in the future: "He took me in spirit to a great high mountain and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God." "Only those will enter whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life."
  
  Actually, the earth has experienced significant disruptions evidenced by the annihilation of the dinosaurs and great flood of Noah's day. Remember, we are dealing with geologic time, and cycling through another ice age that would wipe off the post-apocalyptic mess left in the wake of Armageddon is entirely within reason; it is more reasonable than handing the Great Crowd brooms and haz-mat suits and ordering them to restore the earth into a paradise.
  
  More to the point is Peter's comparison of the earth's pending fiery destruction to the great flood which is a real, not metaphorical, example of earth's fate as detailed at 2 Peter 3:5-13: "They deliberately ignore the fact that the heavens existed of old and earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God; through these the world that then existed was destroyed, deluged with water. The present heavens and earth have been reserved by the same word of fire kept for the day of judgment and of destruction of the godless." Jesus likewise made it known that ultimate destruction will be modeled after the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, where Luke 17:29 makes it abundantly clear God destroyed them all. That man's governments are changed in the process goes without saying. Remember, "...he was seated on the throne and said, "Behold, I am making all things new. (Rev. 21:5).

  To "reign," then, must mean to reign in life or over sin, and old-world government models such as king David's rule over God's people do not necessarily apply to a new world, a new earth and a new creation. As a point of interest, this is the meaning ascribed to the concept of "reign" by the Catholic church.

  Like other numerical values in this book, the thousand years are not to be taken literally; they symbolize the long period of time between the chaining up of Satan (a symbol for Christ's resurrection victory over death and the forces of evil) and the end of the world. During this time God's people share in the glorious reign of God that is present to them by virtue of their baptismal victory over death and sin; cf Rom 6, 1-8; Jn 5, 24-25; 16, 33; 1 Jn 3,14; Eph 2,1. (NAB, note Rev. 20:1-6)

  Finally, if the Great Crowd is in heaven and not on earth as the Jehovah's Witnesses claim, the 144,000 cannot rule over them as earthly subjects.

  http://www.manonthemoon.byethost24.com/144000/index.html
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  rather be in hades

  of course i'm biased in this view lol, but i've always said that if you were raised to believe in santa claus, and all the other adults around you are saying santa is real and there are other groups who believe in santa, but maybe with a green suit instead of red...

  it's not easy to knock yourself out of that, but i do get your point and it certainly has some truth in it
• 

  Recovery

  In response to Leolaia:

  Here is a problem with the interpretation that the great crowd are in heaven, as opposed to the earth. Let's look at Revelation 7:13-15 "And in response one of the elders said to me: “These who are dressed in the white robes, who are they and where did they come from?” 14 So right away I said to him: “My lord, you are the one that knows.” And he said to me: “These are the ones that come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 That is why they are before the throne of God; and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple;

  Now if we interpret the great crowd as being literally in heaven, before the antitypical heavenly temple, before God's and the Lamb's heavenly throne then they are already in heaven. If they are already in heaven, they have already received the gift of immortality. They do not have physical, fleshly bodies, but spiritual ones. At this point in the vision, John is already seeing this great crowd in heaven. Keep this in mind as we look at the next few verses. Continuing...

  "and the One seated on the throne will spread his tent over them. 16 They will hunger no more nor thirst anymore, neither will the sun beat down upon them nor any scorching heat, 17 because the Lamb, who is in the midst of the throne, will shepherd them, and will guide them to fountains of waters of life. And God will wipe out every tear from their eyes.”

  Notice the repetitious use of the modal verb "will". If we interpret the great crowd as already having entered heaven and thus already received the gift of immortality upon such entry, then we have a problem. They are already in God's temple and in the midst of the throne and yet the scripture says God will spread his tent over them. They are immortal and are not affected by a physical realm, yet the scripture says "they will hunger or thirst or be beat down by the sun's scorching heat no more." The Lamb will shepherd them and he will guide them to the fountains of waters of life.

  Now ask yourself: How can the anointed, immortal anointed ones who are not subject to the physical realm and its effects experience these things in a FUTURE SENSE. How can those who are immortal be guided to the fountains of waters of life? How will they 'no longer hunger or thirst or experience the heat from the sun' anymore when they have HEAVENLY, SPIRITUAL, IMMORTAL BODIES? How WILL God wipe out every tear from their eyes when we take all of these things into account?

  Does it seem reasonable to continue concluding that the great crowd is in heaven? Obviously not. Yes there are several phrases that are unique to the heavenly realm that describe the great crowd but these are all clarified and put into perspective when we look at the parallel vision in Revelation 21 and 22.
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  rather be in hades

  How will they 'no longer hunger or thirst or experience the heat from the sun' anymore when they have HEAVENLY, SPIRITUAL, IMMORTAL BODIES?

  i thought spirits don't get hungry, thirsty and all that...

  so if they turned into spirits, and spirits don't get hungry or thirsty or hot then...?

  as for the tears biz...explanations i've always heard within the org was that god would magically erase all those awful memories of this system. kinda like that flaher thingy in men in black i guess. that was a good movie. i don't care what anyone says, i liked 'em.

  then of course we could say it is all figurative and that could work for a bit i suppose.

  of course i'd point out that both arguments are erroneous considering we don't even know if there IS a heaven, much less a great crowd or even god...

  still lrather curious about your thoughts on covington...
• 

  Recovery

  Replying to jwfacts:

  • This is not a double standard. For one, just because the WT is wrong in somethings does not mean it is wrong in everything. Secondly, I quote them constantly, in order to show the contradictions.

  Your premise requires that the readers assume that the Watchtower's description and references used in conjunction with the anointed is correct. If your premise requires that, then it would also require that the Watchtower's references to the earthly great crowd must also be correct. If everything aforementioned is describing the anointed, then everything else (in the WT) must describe the great crowd. Yet this is the total opposite of the point of your article. Your premise is shaky and it's faulty. Probably because you simply copied and pasted another person's flawed logic but that is neither here nor there.

  • Leolaia has well and truly destroyed your argument here.

  No she hasn't. Leolaia only proved that several terms that describe the great crowd are also used in describing aspects of the heavenly realm. This is not something new to JW's and it is not something new to you either as your list showed us. The fact is, your argument was based on a lexicographical stance not a contextual one. You simply equivocated the use of "great crowd" in Revelation 7 with that of 19 since the latter mentions "a great crowd in heaven." However, as I showed by my quotation of another poster, the lexicographical use of the greek terms translated "great crowd" are not unique and can be used to refer to many varying groups. It can refer to ANY large group of people. Do you not understand your own argument?

  • I am not sure if you are saying they are common, or not common, or which you even want to be the right answer. The fact that the ten terms used to describe the Great Crowd all are used in reference to the Anointed makes the case all the stronger that the great crowd are with them in heaven.

  You cannot decide if you want to argue from a contextual stance or from a lexicographical stance. First you use the repetition of "a great crowd in heaven" from Revelation 19 to demonstrate the great crowd in Revelation 7 to be in heaven, but now you want to use contextual usage to argue your point. Either way, this premise is faulty. Revelation 21 and 22, as well as Hebrews 9 clarify the usage of these heavenly references in context to an earthly setting (which is the entire theme of Revelation 7 as a whole). I will show this soon quite clearly.

  • That has been answered, even if you refuse to acknowledge that your argument holds not weight.

  It has been answered poorly. Your answer was merely a strawman which attempted to show the 'faultiness' of a viewpoint I did not advocate in my argument. You also keep repeating that I said 'John is on earth' so how could he see the four corners of the earth, but that is not what I said. I said John is SEEING THE EARTH. Not that he is on earth. Please note that there is a difference. There is still not a valid scriptural pretense for changing the setting and emphasis from the earth to the heavenly realm other than a cut and paste from Ray Franz rhetoric.

  • Again, how is that an issue? God spreads his heavenly tent over them.

  The problem with this interpretation is that Revelation 7 is describing events that are taking place presently and then in a future tense. If the great crowd have been taken to heaven and have thus received spiritual bodies and immortality and are literally dwelling before God and the Lamb, how can God spread his heavenly tent over them? How 'will God dwell with them' as the scripture states? You clearly do not understand the argument I presented but I hope this clears it up for you.

  • Where does it say they are immortal? They will no longer hunger or thirst and the sun won't beat down on them because they are in heaven. They will be guided to waters of life by the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne. He is in the midst of the throne, they are before the throne, and he shepherds them, placing them all in the same vicinity of heaven.

  Oh please. Do you really want me to show you that once the anointed die and enter heaven that they receive immortal, incorruptible spiritual bodies? As an ex-JW this is something you should know quite well as this is discussed at length in 1 Corinthians and in the WT Publications. Your interpretation is shaky, because once again you are saying that 'they will be guided to waters of life'. The immortal cannot be guided any further to the waters of life.

  Since you are demanding answers from me, with your attacks and insults, even though I don't even see any point or logic behind your questions, I expect the same courtesy of you. In your congregation, are you considered the "scholar" that people look up to for answers, or are you the loner up the back that doesn't quite fit in?

  I have never insulted you. I have merely insulted your arguments and shown them to be found wanting. I have never called you a derogatory name nor have I described you in a derogatory manner. That is more than I can say for the members of this forum. To answer the question: I will not say that I am considered a scholar. I have been a pioneer for many years, since I was a teenager, so many people do feel comfortable asking me questions and want to work with me out in field service. Scholar? No. Available to help with tough questions? Yes. Loner? Definitely not.
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  isaacaustin

  LOL We were all once a 'Recovery'...ignoring facts, insisting answers given him were wrong or incomplete.