by Recovery 278 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
I find it intriguing in your discussions, that when a person has a different point of view, you regularly seem unable to comprehend what they are even saying. Your lines of reasoning come across quite illogical at times. I have been removed from the religion long enough not to know if your thinking is representative of other JWs or not.
In your congregation, are you considered the "scholar" that people look up to for answers, or are you the loner up the back that doesn't quite fit in?
Paul; you must hate this publicity!
Paul; you must hate this publicity!
I do. It wastes a lot of time, and misrepresents the purpose of my site. However, if I don't answer, it appears that Recovery may have a point, a wins by forfeit.
I know I could get some flack for saying this, but I am reading this thread from "the throne", and it is indeed on earth.
It is a blatant lie to say I dont understand others arguments. It was you who misinterpreted my argumenf into a strawman on two occassions. In case youve forgotten I can point these out for you. Now will you please point out where I failed to comprehend someones argument. I would love to see this.
And the 5 points continue unaddressed. Who really is the poor, illogical debator who cant understand arguments?
The reference to the "great crowd" in ch. 7 is just as much in heaven as the "great crowd" in ch. 19, regardless of whether they are identical. They are "before the throne of God (enòpion tou thronou theou) and serve him day and night in his temple (en tò naò autou)" (7:15). Those who are also "before the throne" are the seven spirits in 1:4, the seven lamps in 4:5, the sea of glass in 4:6, "all the angels" a few verses earlier in 7:11, the golden altar in 8:3, 9:13; these are heavenly objects or beings. The term enòpion also in this context implies proximity, "in front of"; cf. "The twenty-four elders will fall down before (enòpion) him who sits on the throne ... and will cast their crowns before the throne (enòpion tou thronou)" (4:10), the twenty-four elders are heavenly, seated on their own thrones surrounding God's throne (4:4, 11:16), and this involves a casting forth of crowns towards the throne. The "temple" (naos) is also explicitly designated as "in heaven" in 11:19, 14:17, 15:5.
The great crowd has "come out of the great tribulation". This means one thing: they are dead; they were martyred during the tribulation. This innumerable crowd completes the number of martyrs mentioned in 6:9-11: "I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God....Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed". The reference to the incomplete number of martyred saints foreshadows the innumerable great crowd coming out of the great tribulation in the next chapter. These are the dead in heaven (as the "altar" is in the heavenly temple), awaiting the completion of the tribulation. Notice too that they are given a white robe (an angelic garment), just as those of the "great crowd" in heaven in 7:13. These members of the "great crowd" have white robes because they have "made them white in the blood of the Lamb" (7:14). This again means that they are martyred, for the martyrs in 12:11 have overcome the Devil "by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they did not love their lives when faced with death". Notice the past tense. They are already dead, like the martyred saints in ch. 6 and 7.
boc -
This is how a discussion with Recovery feels to me.
R - JWF You're a liar. You said the sky is blue, but it is green.
JWF - But it is blue
R - No its not, it is green. Why haven't you tried to answer me?
JWF - But it is blue. That is the answer.
R - No its not
JWF - Ok, here is why I think it is blue.
R - You're wrong
JWF - Well, what about this quote
R - They are wrong too. My leaders told me it is green
JWF - But they sometimes say it is blue
R - That's because they cannot be trusted and are wrong too sometimes.
JWF - mmm.????
Unlike jwfacts and tootired2care and many other posters I write all my own arguments. I do not cut and paste but I spend many hours examining opposing claims and trying to get to the truth of the matter. I just know if I started a thread on 607/1914 and I danced around and sidetracked the issue like the posters, especially tootired2care and jwfacts and refused to address the most basic of arguments, I would definitely be ridiculed and called out for it.
Will anyone call jwfacts out? Nooo. Wait. We dont care about the truth. We dont care that jwfacts is merely an organized cut and paste of anti JW propaganda by exJWs. We dont even believe the Bible is accurate and we believe in the theory of evolution.
Hilarious.
Keep talking recovery. Get it all out.... Once you acept the obviousness of the truth you'll feel much better
