Jwfacts-- More Lies But This Time About The Great Crowd

by Recovery 278 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Recovery
    Recovery

    Questions that have gone unanswered:

    How can the anointed, immortal anointed ones who are not subject to the physical realm and its effects experience these things in a FUTURE SENSE.

    How can those who are immortal be guided to the fountains of waters of life?

    How will they 'no longer hunger or thirst or experience the heat from the sun' anymore when they have HEAVENLY, SPIRITUAL, IMMORTAL BODIES?

    How WILL God wipe out every tear from their eyes when they are already in heaven with incorruptible, immortal spiritual bodies?

  • jookbeard
    jookbeard

    Recovery , how many more times can someone say a great crowd before a throne? the f**king throne is in heaven FFS!!

  • Christ Alone
    Christ Alone

    I don't know. I don't think he should be deleted because he still holds to Watchtower teaching. I think his presence here is important to him and others for various reasons. Why can't he have his opinion too? Even if it's different from our own and one that we have chosen to reject?

    I don't get the same feeling from Recovery as I have from other JW apologists that have been here. Just my personal take on it. Sometimes it's important to get all the facts on the table. Answer his questions from the Bible. And show that the Watchtower is wrong on many of these issues. It's a good record for people to look through in the future.

    I don't see Recovery as making any sort of threat against anyone that would ban him from this site. Yeah, I don't like the way he talks sometimes as far as sarcasm and veiled insults. But many of us do that at times on this site. It's something I think Recovery is working on and I don't think he should just be kicked off for being passionate about what he believes.

    Just my two cents.

  • jeremiah18:5-10
    jeremiah18:5-10

    ChristAlone: I have to agree. Dissenting views are what breathes life into this site. Why would you stifle someone just because they frustrate you and you can't convince them to change their mind?

    Isn't that tantamount to the ill-prepared blinded JW at your door unable to answer simple questions so they resort to pitying you and "marking" you as undeserving and as a goat?

    If you don't want free exchange, exit the topic or return to the WT they love closed-minded individuals that can't think for themselves or defend their beliefs.

    Not directed at anyone in particular, just in general.

  • EndofMysteries
    EndofMysteries

    I am undecided because as I have shown you earlier, the heavenly jerusalem is shown as earthly in other scriptures.

    But if the great crowd IS in heaven to answer those last questions.

    Actually I would ask about the fountains of waters of life.

    You will notice in both the old testament and new testament one thing identical to the fountains/waters of life. That they come from under the temple.

    In the Old testament, this they come from under the temple, one flows to the dead sea and brings life to the sea. Also trees grow on both sides and their leafs give healing to the nations.

    Jesus says that YOU, your BODY is the temple, and inside you a spring will bubble and give life.

    Then in Revelation, it appears a spiritual Jerusalem with waters flowing from it.

    As for how will they no longer hunger, experience the heat from the sun, your question alone answered that, if they are spiritual they do not need to eat and the heat from the sun would not harm them.

    If they are immortal, there is no death.

    I still see a physical and heavenly chance. But for being immortal or living forever, John 3:3,6 speak about being born again. That you MUST be born again to see the kingdom of God. Vs 6 says what is born from the flesh is flesh and spirit spirit. But further details are shown in 1 Cor 15:35-49 on how will the dead be raised up, it speaks of the bodies that people have, we were born in flesh, some were born as spirits (angels), but flesh does die, vs 44 says how you die a physical body but then raised in a spiritual body because vs 53 says that which is mortal must put on immortality. then vs 54/55 say Death, where is your sting? Since they are immortal now as spirits they CAN'T die!

    Also there is a scripture that it is appointed for all flesh to die, Hebrews 9:27 - Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment.

    There is a sacred secret for a few who might not actually die but have their bodies transformed. 1 Cor 15:50-53.

    But that flesh is transformed into spirit.

    What is interesting, is the idea that flesh will live forever and never die, atleast once, seems to be spoken in Is 28:14-15, speaking about those who made a covenant with death, that they would never die, how it's a false teaching.

    As you may have read earlier, I found strong evidence in the scriptures of the society involved in spiritism and other things. So that what is said in Is28 would further make sense if that's true.

  • EndofMysteries
    EndofMysteries

    o and any moderators reading all of this, DO NOT DELETE RECOVERY!!!!!

    His questions are valid, he is actually researching and reading the articles. I was the same way. He's expecting real scriptual answers, and they exist, I am giving some. This is healthy discussion.

  • rather be in hades
    rather be in hades

    i'm sure you don't want to talk about that. the truth is hard to swallow, just like it was for many of us coming out.

    at some point, you need to face facts like an adult or run away like a child. what's it gonna be?

    would you like to know what the watchtower said in court just a FEW MONTHS AGO?

    this, btw was taken from court documents that you are more than welcome to check out on your own. i'm posting this for your convenience.

    • 1977 - dorman was born
    • 1980 - campos becomes an baptized publisher in 1980 (34)
    • 1982 - campos molests a young member of linda vista congregation (39)
    • 1982 - yong member tells his mother (40)
    • 1982 - at this time, campos CONFESSES to the boy's mother (41)
    • 1982 - -mother tells elders, elders investigate, campos confesses to elders, NO ACTION TAKEN (42-47)
    • 1982 - elders decides it's a minor matter bc they feel as though the mothers of the two involved worked it out somehow (48)
    • 1982 - elder knew molestation was a crime, that he may repeat the crime, yet no restrictions on service and cong not warned (49)
    • 1982 - police never called and campos continued condcting bible studies (50-51)
    • 1983 - WHEN DORMAN WAS 6 YEARS OLD, CAMPOS WOULD SODOMIZE HIM AFTER BIBLE STUDY. HE WOULD TAKE DORMAN TO WORK WITH HIM. DORMAN'S MOTHER THOUGHT THIS WAS FINE AS HE WOULD BE A GOOD EXAMPLE FOR HER SON. (100)
    • 1985 - WHEN DORMAN WAS APPROX 8 YEARS OLD, THE ABUSE STOPPED...AT LEAST AT WORK...STILL SKETCHY IF THERE WAS MORE. (100)
    • 1986 - linda vista splits into la jolla and linda vista. both halls comprised of members from the original linda vista (57)
    • 1986 - inaugural elders for la jolla congregation were elders from linda vista
    • 1986 - elders form judicial committee for campos as more sexal molestation allegations come forth (pg. 24 - 2)
    • 1986 - reproved, not expelled, temporary restriction on some priveledges (pg. 24 - 3)
    • 1987 - Dormans move to Illinois, victim was 10...
    • 1988 - campos becomes a ministerial servant (36)
    • 1988 - campos started molesting gamboa and continued molesting him until 1994, sometimes as many as 2-3x a week from oral to attempted sodomy, digital anal penetration. (83-86)
    • 1993 - becomes an elder, eventually becomes congregation servant (37)
    • 1994 - gamboa moves to arizona and campos can no longer abuse him (86)
    • 1994 - the dormans learn their son had been molested by campos (60)
    • 1994 - campos admits to molesting dorman AND THAT THE ELDERS ALREADY KNEW (61)
    • 1994 - dormans ask the riveras who are believed to have a son molested by campos, riveras were already warned of campos (62)
    • 1994 - elders say that if she pursues the matter a previous affair she engaged in would be disclosed to the congregation, also said that too many years had passed and there was nothing they could do (63)

    how is it your spirit directed organization, with it's all knowing and perfect god, managed to allow that monster to rape children for DECADES.

    the elders knew, he had confessed and yet, under prayerful consideration, he is made a ministerial servant IN THE VERY SAME YEAR HE STARTS SODOMIZING A 6 YEAR OLD.

    are you REALLY going to brush that aside as imperfect men? i wonder how you'd feel if that was you being sodomized, or if that was your own child?

    but wait! there's more...

    • there's the question of time slips. according to the watchtower society in LEGAL PAPERWORK you do not have to turn in time (23 and 24)
    • there's the qestion of the meeting for field service...nnecessary according to the watchtower society (25)
    • there's the question of territories...unnecessary according to the watchtower society (26 and 27)
    • the purpose of field service is to preach about the good news, NOT TO INVITE PEOPLE TO THE KINGDOM HALLS OR TO BEGIN BIBLE STUDIES SO AS TO ATTRACT NEW MEMBERS (27 AND 28)

    take a good long look at those statements, made by YOUR organization.

    you don't have to turn in time, you don't have to go to mtg for fs, you don't have to go to specific territories, you don't have to invite people to the kingdom halls or even TRY to conduct bible studies. think about that. they denied in COURT DOCUMENTS that witnesses have to ATTEMPT to conduct bible studies with others.

    well that's strange bc i remember having to turn in slips every month, and try to find interested ones to study with and bring them in.

    now why would they deny all of this stuff in a trial where one of their ministers was sodomizing a bible study's child? could it be to limit liability???

  • Recovery
    Recovery

    Can we please keep the thread on topic. I really do not wish to engage in a discussion about court documents/child abuse at this moment.

    Questions still unanswered for lurkers and those who do not have the desire to read through 11 pages:

    How can the anointed, immortal anointed ones who are not subject to the physical realm and its effects experience these things in a FUTURE SENSE.

    How can those who are immortal be guided to the fountains of waters of life?

    How will they 'no longer hunger or thirst or experience the heat from the sun' anymore when they have HEAVENLY, SPIRITUAL, IMMORTAL BODIES?

    How WILL God wipe out every tear from their eyes when they are already in heaven with incorruptible, immortal spiritual bodies?

  • EndofMysteries
    EndofMysteries

    I just answered those questions Recovery, please respond.

  • mrsjones5
    mrsjones5

    Hm you ain't got that kind of control ReNana. It's like herding cats here. And a bigger font won't even help.

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