Last Night's Intervention

by brotherdan 154 Replies latest jw friends

  • Olin Moyles Ghost
    Olin Moyles Ghost

    Threads like this are fantastic because they show in stark relief the absurdity and tortured logic required to advocate for the WTS position. In Watchtower-land, prophets don't actually prophesy. Brilliant!

    Facts don't matter, logic doesn't matter, even the plain meaning of words (such as "prophet" and "prophesy") don't matter. All that matters is to defend the Watchtower Corporation at any and all cost.

  • leavingwt
    Facts don't matter, logic doesn't matter, even the plain meaning of words (such as "prophet" and "prophesy") don't matter. All that matters is to defend the Watchtower Corporation at any and all cost.

    This is exactly what is going on with ALL high-control groups. Folks who are victimized by a sophisticated and subtle form of Thought Reform are (almost) helpless to evaluate contradictory evidence, and then reach a conclusion independent of what 'Mother' says. The very thought of having an opinion contrary to leadership causes a programmed physiological response of increased heartrate, etc. It's scary to them.

    I was once one of those people. I remember what it was like to be terrified of INFORMATION.

    At the end of the day, however, what is TRUE is true. What is FALSE, is false.

  • Soldier77

    debator said:

    This is getting circular.

    First thing you said that I agree with, yes, your posts always get circular. That would be a circle, not a sphere too, just FYI.

  • changeling

    You said: " I thought that was the weakest and most unbiblical of my arguments"

    IMO, you will not get most witnesses to reason on biblical points but... if you can get them to see the hypocrisy of those running the religion, a light bulb may go off in their heads. The Malawi/Mexico issue, the UN/ngo debacle, the double standard in Bulgaria... these are the smoking guns that make people wonder if they are not being deceived about other things...

    Oh, and you did not step on anyone's toes (not reasonable people anyway). We are all free to respectfully express our opinions here. :)

  • leavingwt

    brotherdan: You may find it helpful to frame your questions, using other religious groups (that are also high-control groups), like the Mormons. Then, you ask thought-provoking questions.

    (1) How would a Mormon ever discover that their religion is not true?

    (2) How do Mormons treat former members?

    (3) Why do Mormons reject our literature when we meet them in field service?

    (4) Is it possible to verify the accuracy of Mormon literature?

    (5) If we discovered that deceptions or half-truths were being published by Mormons, would this be evidence that God is using them?

    Etc, etc.

    As Steve Hassan says, your goal is to "empower people to think for themselves".

  • Think About It
    Think About It

    In both the JW & Morman cults.......the only proof they provide as to their appointment as God's prophets is that you believe the man who started the religion and the suceeding men in charge.

    In the Morman religion you have to believe the Angel actually revealed the golden plates to Joseph Smith without the plates as proof.

    In the JW religion you have to believe God chose Charles Russell's group because he had the truth, then God discarded practically everything they believed in favor of a modern-day high control publishing cult.

    Think About It

  • brotherdan

    Yeah, I'm brushing up on the mind control thing (thanks leavingwt).

    This thing was totally unexpected though, you know? I was railroaded as soon as I got home from work. I just wanted to drink beer and watch something funny and mindless. Instead I spent 3 hours defending myself against a cult!

  • Billy the Ex-Bethelite
    Billy the Ex-Bethelite

    Billy, I tried to talk about 607 and 1914 last night and it was a bit difficult. I have not memorized the chronology of the Babylon king's reigns yet. Nor do I remember the exact tablets that are used to prove a later date for the destruction of Jerusalem.

    Actually, all you need is an encyclopedia, history book, or any online history reference and none of them report 607 as the destruction of Jerusalem by Babylon. I have the print encylopedia with the article "Jerusalem: History" on hand, and wikipedia is an easy reference. While Watchtower agrees with historians on the year of the fall of Babylon, why do they disagree with all historical evidence by 20 years? Encourage a defender to look for any non-JW reference to Jerusalem's fall in 607, they just might find "the truth".

    I do feel comfortable about the blood issue and brought it up last night as well. I said that if a Witness can receive blood fractions, that is tantamount to receiving blood. She actually agreed and said it was wrong. So I said, the society, then, allows blood transfusions. They are just limiting the amount of blood "materials" that you can put in your body. Totally unscriptural. She changed the subject.

    Lots of different angles to attack. Rather than going head-on against the hypocricy of refusing blood but accepting fractions, I've had more thoughtful pauses when I point out that the most conservative pharisee-ish Jews that wash their meat in vinegar water to get every drop of blood out have no objection to receiving blood transfusions because they know that the Noachian and Mosaic Law applied to eating blood of dead animals as food and wasn't intending as a prohibition on receiving life-saving medical treatment obtained from living, healthy, volunteer donors. First I say it matter-of-factly then repeat it with the clear explanation that I learned it from talking to Jews d2d. We have to realize that they've been living with this stuff for thousands of years and would know better what was intended.

  • bennyk

    I've posted this elsewhere today, but maybe it'll prove useful here as well...

    The Watch Tower Society kindly gives an example of "false prophesying":

    "True, there have been those in times past who predicted an 'end to the world,' even announcing a specific date. Some have gathered group of people with them and fled to the hills or withdrawn into their houses waiting for the end. Yet, nothing happened. The 'end' did not come. They were guilty of false prophesying." (Awake! 08. October 1968, p. 23)

    The Watch Tower Society gives a definition of "prophet":

    "The New American Bible correctly states: ' Prophet means "one who speaks for another," especially for God. It does not necessarily mean that he predicts the future!"' (08. June 1986 Awake! p.9)

    The Watch Tower Society declares itself a "prophet" or declares that it is "prophesying":

    13 The fact that decides the answer to the question is, not, Do all the clergy of Roman Catholicism and of Protestantism agree that Jehovah’s witnesses have been and are God’s prophet to the nations? but, Who discerned the divine will for Christians in this time of the world’s end and offered themselves to do it? Who have undertaken God’s foreordained work for this day of judgment of the nations? Who have answered the call to the work and have done it down till this year 1958? Whom has God actually used as his prophet?14 By the historical facts of the case Christendom is beaten back in defeat. Jehovah’s witnesses are deeply grateful today that the plain facts show that God has been pleased to use them. All the preaching and all the Bible educational work that they have done till now in 175 countries and islands of the sea they confess has been, not by help of a military army, nor by human power, but by God’s spirit, his invisible active force. (Zech. 4:6, AV) It has been because Jehovah thrust out his hand of power and touched their lips and put his words in their mouths. It has evidently been because he commissioned them to be over the nations and over the kingdoms. Happy are all those who have seen what the work of Jehovah God for now is and who have volunteered to do it. (w59 1/15 pp. 40-41 pars. 13-14)

    22 As Jehovah revealed his truths by means of the first-century Christian congregation so he does today by means of the present-day Christian congregation. Through this agency he is having carried out prophesying on an intensified and unparalleled scale. All this activity is not an accident. Jehovah is the one behind all of it. The abundance of spiritual food and the amazing details of Jehovah’s purposes that have been revealed to Jehovah’s anointed witnesses are clear evidence that they are the ones mentioned by Jesus when he foretold a “faithful and discreet slave” class that would be used to dispense God’s progressive revelations in these last days. Of this class Jesus said: “Truly I say to you, He will appoint him over all his belongings.”-Matt. 24:47. (w64 6/15 p. 365 par. 22)

    36 None of us should want to be like these indecisive, unresponding ones! Better it is to know now, rather than too late, that there is an authentic prophetic class of Christians among us, and to accept and act upon the Bible message, “not as the word of men, but, just as it truthfully is, as the word of God.” (1 Thessalonians 2:13) Concerning the message faithfully delivered by the Ezekiel classJehovah positively states that it “must come true.” He asseverates that those who wait undecided until it does “come true” “will also have to know that a prophet himself had proved to be in the midst of them.” (Ezekiel 33:33) Such belated knowledge, however, will not mean salvation for them, for it will find their hearts and their ways to be unchanged.
    37 What is to be gained by hesitating and doubting to the end that Jehovah can raise up and has raised up a genuine “prophet” within our generation? (“The Nations Shall Know That I Am Jehovah”-How? chap. 15 p. 292 pars. 36-37)

    However, Jehovah did not let the people of Christendom, as led by the clergy, go without being warned that the League was a counterfeit substitute for the real kingdom of God. He had a “prophet” to warn them. This “prophet” was not one man, but was a body of men and women. It was the small group of footstep followers of Jesus Christ, known at that time as International Bible Students. Today they are known as Jehovah’s Christian witnesses. They are still proclaiming a warning, and have been joined and assisted in their commissioned work by hundreds of thousands of persons who have listened to their message with belief.
    Of course, it is easy to say that this group acts as a “prophet” of God. It is another thing to prove it. The only way that this can be done is to review the record. What does it show? (w72 4/1 p. 197 ‘They Shall Know that a Prophet Was Among Them’)

    22 The holy spirit, which Jehovah prophesied that he would pour out in the last days, has not ceased to operate, for the remnant are still baptizing disciples of Christ in the name of that spirit. (Matthew 28:19, 20; Joel 2:28, 29; Acts 2:14-21) The announced purpose behind God’s pouring out of his spirit upon all sorts of flesh was that the recipients thereof might prophesy. The facts substantiate that the remnant of Christ’s anointed disciples have been doing that prophesying to all the nations for a witness in favor of God’s kingdom. Logically, then, they must be the ones upon whom God’s spirit has actually been poured out. That spirit is behind their worldwide preaching.Why argue about it? (Holy Spirit-The Force Behind the Coming New Order! chap. 8 p. 148 par. 22)

    The Watch Tower Society declares its followers "prophets", as well:

    You will be interested to learn that God has on earth a people, all of whom are prophets, or witnesses for God. In fact, they are known throughout the world as Jehovah’s Witnesses. Out of love for God and his Word, they are carrying on a universal Bible educational work among old and young, rich and poor. They have hundreds of thousands of full-time voluntary workers, some of whom translate and print Bibles and Bible educational literature that is distributed inexpensively, or even free of charge. They are assisted by millions of part-time workers. Any of these will be happy to help you “discern the signs of the times” and embrace the wonderful hope contained in God’s Word, the Bible. (g86 6/8 p. 9 “Would That All Were Prophets!”)

  • brotherdan

    Thanks Billy. I'm new at this whole thing. I wish I would've busted open the laptop to show her the 607 deal. But since she was open to ready CoC, maybe she'd be open to reading Gentile Times Reconsidered as well. I just found a pdf of it online and I'm starting to read it now along with Combating Mind Control by Hassan.

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