Last Night's Intervention

by brotherdan 154 Replies latest jw friends

  • Mad Sweeney
    Mad Sweeney

    You got it, Undercover. VERY few people outside of Dub-land even consider "Jehovah" to be "God" as they know him, if they even realize it is a name for a god at all. Even in the western world, I would bet more people know who Allah is than Jehovah.

    Also, Ice Cream and Soldier, thanks for the props. I appreciate it. I feel so blessed/lucky/whatever that I was able to leave with my wife and child at my side. It breaks my heart to see so many couples and families split up by the Borg. I have Dub siblings who shun me but leaving has allowed me to reconnect with other non-JW family I never seemed to have time for or care about as a Witness.

    No word from brotherdan in awhile. I hope you're doing ok, bro.

  • brotherdan

    Yeah, quick update. Last night my wife brought up something that she said disturbed her when me and her friend were talking. She said, "I didn't like you were telling her that Jehovah isn't the real name of God."

    So I told her that this is true. We don't know how Gods name was pronounced. So I tried to use an illustration, and i think my illustration sucked a hole, but I tried. I said, "What if I was to die and someone came up to you and said, "I really loved Denny. He was a great guy." Would you not say, "My husbands name was not Denny." It is true that 3 of the letters in the name Denny are found in the name Daniel. But Denny is not my name. So even the WT admits that the letters contained in the name "Jehovah" are not the same." I explained to her how YHWH was combined with Adonai to come up with Yahweh/Jehovah. I also brought out that Yahweh is more accurate. So if we want to say Gods name in a way that is closer to what he wanted, we should say Yahweh.

    She gave me the same crap about Jehovah being the "accepted" english version. I want to know who "accepts" this version? As far as I know, anyone that knows anything about the tetrgrammeton knows that this is not accepted.

    So another battle lost. I mean, what's the point anymore? I'm starting not care.

  • Qcmbr

    Hi brotherdan - as a relatively recently exited cultist (my poison was Mormonism) I think I can empathise a little and hope I have some useful thoughts:

    1 - Facing the reality that your worldview, especially one you are heavily invested in could be fundamentally flawed, is a psychologically repugnant and traumatic experience. Renaai /Debator/Your wife/friend (and then of course all of us) will almost always shy away from a brutally honest, naked self-examination of our beliefs because it physically hurts so much. Defending our own worldview is like a beautiful smooth and creamy bar of chocolate to a ravenous dieter; it doesn't matter whether we know it's wrong and harmful the immediate hit is so wonderful that its hard to stop. Debator gets much needed mental satiation from the 'fight' regardless of the point that to any outside observer she/he is merely eating chocolate while dieting.

    2 - Having a strongly ingrained worldview means a certain physical brain wiring - literally the brain cannot perceive certain stimuli. Showing an invested JW a WT article saying one thing and then another article contradicting it is the equivalent of putting on an infra red light show - it really cannot be seen no matter how obvious it is. Debator really cannot see any logical flaws - to him any damning evidence is like a burst of unitelligble static. This is how brains work - it's part of our self defence and filtering mechanism to allow us to perceive and make sense of our vast world.

    3 - Knowing the above suggests a way to share insight and together change EACH others worldview. Each of us has a 'door' in our mental filtering, ways for alternate worldviews to be processed before our brain filters alter or delete them. My doors were: A very close trusted friend leaving my faith, this forum (a similar religious experience but from an organisation I already deemed other and wrong - similarities became too obvious) and finally a deep feeling of unease at the lack of evidence of my own convictions. All debates with born -agains, atheists, concerned friends etc.. merely attacked my mental castle at its strongest point and bounced off my illogical / emotional / pedantic / sophisticated reasoning.

    Here is my suggestions-: Listen with every faculty you've got to the person who you wish to share your worldview - listen for their door.

    When you think you've found it - knock and wait to be let in (i.e. don't dive in the moment you think you found a crack in an argument) - sharing worldviews cannot be done in mental combat.

    Once your invited in don't lay waste to someones worldview with a barrage of information and rhetoric - surgeons don't operate with wreckless abandon but with respect. If your sharing worldviews you're metaphorically deep inside someones personal and very precious mental wiring - be gentle and very patient.

    Like any great guest return the awesome compliment and invite that person to share their worldview by inviting them inside your mind.

    Practically what did all that guff mean? It means I'd humbly suggest you and your wife will change together and you'll do it more quickly and wonderfully on a picnic blanket than hunched over old WTs chewing dusty facts. Talking honestly without a need to convince your wife will do more to convince her! It will change your worldview too. I've talked my changes this over with my wife (she's still LDS) but we've got closer because (and I have made mistakes) I've discussed my changing worldview by discussing my fears , my confusion and my breakthroughs and sharing her sadness, disappointment (with me eek!) and her hopes. Together we are examining what we both believe. Together we are inching to a new evolving, personal worldview.

  • Mad Sweeney
    Mad Sweeney

    Awesome, Qcmbr. I think you're right on.

    Another thing I didn't mention about our Family Worship Night (which I can't recommend highly enough) is how UNlike a Bible study it was. It was a family sitting in our living room reading and talking. Yeah, I took the "lead" and asked questions, steering the conversation, but it was still conversation that once the high points were struck went wherever the family went together.

    Be the best husband you can be. Be a better husband than you ever were while in the Borg. Talk about being won over without a word? You can do it.

  • Meeting Junkie No More
    Meeting Junkie No More

    Fantastic post, Qcmbr!

    My significant other and I more or less 'woke up' together but through different 'doors'. Mine was 'doctrinal'; theirs was the 'lack of love', but we discovered those things and bounced them off each other. So we both left, but for different reasons. I now wish I had kept a diary of the whole 'melt-down process' because, since we've entered the real world, it has become so hard to remember all of the tribulation we went through as a family during that time. We absolutely HAD TO GO THROUGH IT THOUGH!. It was a very rough stage at the time, but now it's all good. So brotherdan, hang in there. It does get better...anyhow, you are doing the best that you can, and it will be a small seed that you plant that will grow, like Jesus said. Just keep sowing those seeds!

  • Billy the Ex-Bethelite
    Billy the Ex-Bethelite

    "So another battle lost. I mean, what's the point anymore? I'm starting not care."

    It's just that "Jehovah" isn't a big deal to her. Now you know. Frankly, it wouldn't have been a big deal to me either. What got to me was the fact that they added it extensively throughout the Greek text at their choosing, even where the context indicated that "lord" meant "Jesus". Why did they think they had the right to go "Jehovah" crazy with the NWT? The Kingdom Interlinear, p. 17, says, "the original text of the Christian Greek Scriptures has been tampered with,.... from the 3d century A.,C. onward, the divine name in Tetragrammaton form has been eliminated from the text by copyists who did not understand or appreciate the divine name...". So Watchtower determined, without any evidence or agreement by anyone else, that God had carelessly allowed his Bible to be seriously tampered with. Where else did those bad Catholics corrupt the scriptures? I'm thinking Matt. chap. 24, and all of Revelation, and the resurrection of Lazarus, and Paul admitted that he was writing his opinion and not the lord's... or is that Lord's?

    And to "not care" is normal. 99.9% of the world's population don't give a rat's a$s what Jehovah's Witnesses believe.

  • agonus

    "Yahweh is more accurate".

    Oh yeah, been there, done that big time. Told 'em it's in their literature, labeled an apostate anyway. Retards.

  • Kenneson

    Debator claims that the Watchtower Society can make mistakes in its interpretation of prophecy and their calculations of prophecy. Why, therefore, are their interpretations and calculations worthy of being called "new light"? Why are theirs more accurate than anyone elses? They may claim not to be false prophets, nevertheless, they have proved over and over again that they are administrators of bunk!!!

  • BabaYaga

    Qcmbr said:

    I'd humbly suggest you and your wife will change together and you'll do it more quickly and wonderfully on a picnic blanket than hunched over old WTs chewing dusty facts. Talking honestly without a need to convince your wife will do more to convince her! It will change your worldview too.

    Beautifully said!

    Brother Dan, have you read the Steven Hassan books yet? They REALLY help with family in! Forgive me if this has already been answered.


  • garyneal


    I am very late in this thread as I can see but I wanted to encourage you and let you know that it is great what you are trying to do.

    I will admit though that it is hard to reach a believer who thinks you are simply an opposer. I recall before the generation new light, my wife firmly believed in the idea that a generation was only the people alive to see 1914. When I told her about the new light in January (three months ahead of time), she blasted me and the 'apostates' on this board for making stuff up without any proof. Finally, when she read it for herself from a printed article sometime later, she changed her beliefs (AMAZING!!!).

    I find it very amazing how people do this but I guess it is because I have learned to think for myself and call out B.S. when I hear it, even if it comes from my religious leaders. I'm no stranger to 'church hopping' especially when I leave a church because they say or do something I think is unbiblical. I've even went months and years without going to any church while still being a believer. Though I am fairly open minded to other's beliefs and opinions at the same time I have my own personal beliefs that do not change easily. Certainly not when a pastor or a ragazine proclaims a new theory light on what the scriptures say.

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