Why attack?

by newqatarjob 145 Replies latest jw experiences

  • Finkelstein

    Bonsai makes a valid comment and Cofty is makes one as well, they both coincide with one another when you read them both .

    Bonsai ......

    Throughout history there have been many organizations/societies/ religions that have been oppressive in not allowing free thought. They used fear, guilt and the massive weight of social/religious obligation to exhaust the people into submission.

    Cofty .....

    It's more likely because most ex-JWs have had to actually examine the beliefs they were given by their parents. 99.9% of believers have never done that.

  • Village Idiot
    Village Idiot

    @ Finkelstein,

    "I like to ask Whenindoubt what are you doing here if its strongly advised by the GB to not come to ex-JWS apostate web sites and discuss religious faith issues ?"

    Maybe he's disfellowshipped and thinks that he can come here without breaking Jehovah's command.

    I know that several Witnesses on this site have had that question posed to them but never gave an answer.

  • cofty
    Is WID an active JW?
  • WheninDoubt

    Village Idiot: Thank you for the pdf, I already have it. I read the inside story of Jehovah witnesses, apostles of denial, and countless more. That’s how we learn, but to be effective, view all sides of the issue, by not relying on any one thing. That’s how free will works.

    Bonsai, thank you for your wisdom.

    Cofty: I knew you wouldn't be able to stay away, my hat of to you, as always.

    Finkelstein: Knowledge is a strong motive to let it go to waste. Understanding of that knowledge is what keeps us all hoping for something better. Then we learn that not all things placed before us constitutes the truth. The more you question, the less answers we get, and by that as Bonsai stated, then this forum. Thank you all.

  • cofty
    So WID are you an active JW or not?
  • FayeDunaway

    When in doubt, I don't believe you have read crisis of conscience, or you wouldn't have said what you did about Ray franz. You are not knowledgable about him. Get it off your bookshelf and read it.

    you do disagree then with the society about reading apostate literature, reading 'all sides of an issue' as you say. Is that your only disagreement?

  • Fisherman

    I have no malice or hatred or disgust for any human, religious or not.

    I suppose that you have not been bitten where it hurts. With that said, feelings of anger and retaliation are human. When people think that they can get away with turning those feelings into actions, some people choose to do so. The wts is an easy target, they do not retaliate back. You will seldom see a hate group or individuals targeting certain religions or other entities that do fight back-because when they do.... you have watched the news. And without any news, some of these other entities have powerful connections that have ways of cutting short life spans and other ways of stopping people from causing them trouble. The wts does not do that and people know it.

    Should a person be allowed to enjoy the freedoms afforded to him by the law while concurrently preventing others from enjoying the same freedoms?

    In some lands retaliation is a crime. A person is not allowed to take the law into his own hands and try to get back at someone else by using any means whatsoever. When a person feels injured by someone else, there is a legal process to follow. Of course, an entity would have to be accused of retaliation, civil rights violation, harassment or maybe 230 defamation..., and in many lands, freedom of speech triumphs. But do not be surprised if you see judges using the other side of the sword awarding damages against hate groups and individuals.

    A while back, in a "free country", in a certain jurisdiction, a business owner would express his "views" publicly at his place of business. Members of a group became angry and stopped doing business with the proprietor. They did not stop there, they tried to put the business owner out of business. The man sued, the other party defended. Who do you think was awarded damages?

    Anyway, you can have whatever views or feelings you have, that is a private matter. But once you express your views to the public or turn your feelings into actions, at the very least, they are noted.

  • Village Idiot
    Village Idiot

    @ WheninDoubt,

    "Village Idiot: Thank you for the pdf, I already have it. I read the inside story of Jehovah witnesses, apostles of denial, and countless more. That’s how we learn, but to be effective, view all sides of the issue, by not relying on any one thing. That’s how free will works."

    No problem but I posted that PDF for the sake of the newbies and lurkers here.

    "I read the inside story of Jehovah witnesses, apostles of denial, and countless more."

    Crisis of Conscience is different than most other anti-JW books in that it is an account of a man's experience and a man that was actually part of the power structure. The rest are mostly doctrinal apologetics.

    That’s how we learn, but to be effective, view all sides of the issue, by not relying on any one thing. That’s how free will works."

    Most people on this forum have seen all sides of the issues that's why they're here.

  • Magnum

    If English is your first language, then your writing is indicative of a low IQ. Also, you make many ad hominem attacks; you have little or no real argument. People who lack the intelligence to argue or who have no argument use argumentum ad hominem.

    What happened. Did you all, get tired.

    So you scold us for what we say, and now you scold us for not saying more of it. You’re just wasting our time. That’s completely illogical. Also, both of those sentences are questions and should end with question marks, not periods, and there should be no comma after “all”.

    So the answer to your narcissistic view is, fight evil with evil, this is the compassion, love and trust you’re telling people around the world, by you people hear.

    So you refer to our “narcissistic view” and you say that we “fight evil with evil”. These are specific examples of the ad hominem arguments I referred to above. So you claim our view is narcissistic and we fight evil with evil, but you offer no specific evidence, no specific case, no specific argument. Try walking into a courtroom and telling the judge that your opponent at law is mean or evil or that he’s a lawbreaker. The judge should swiftly kick you out of court if you don’t get specific.

    Also, that sentence is so badly written that I don’t have the time to even begin to say what all is wrong with it.

    I believe someone is this thread said, where do you get off telling us how to think or live, so my question would be, where you get off telling people on how to think and live their lives with all your anger and bitterness.

    Again, ad hominem attack - general accusation with no specifics. In what specific way do we tell people how to think and live their lives? It is JWs who do that. We’re just warning people about the wrongs of JWdom, and JWdom is clearly wrong in many ways and has been for decades. JWs have for decades smugly pointed out the wrongs (or perceived wrongs) of others – individuals and institutions. Are they the only ones allowed to do that?

    You indicate that we have anger and bitterness without explaining why. Argumentum ad hominem. You use the same tactics my mother does. When she gets into an argument, she just starts claiming her opponent is bitter or angry or mean or evil. She has zero specific evidence and lacks the thinking ability to carry on a reasonable argument.

    So, specifically, what is it that justifies your calling us angry and bitter. Does pointing out the wrongs of JWdom make us angry and bitter? If so, then are you saying that anyone who points out any kind of wrong is angry and bitter, or is it only those who point out the wrongs of JWdom who are angry and bitter? Are people who point out the wrongs of animal abuse angry and bitter? Are people who point out the injustices in human society angry and bitter? Are people who didn’t like the latest Transformers movie angry and bitter?

    If you’re going to call us angry and bitter, then you should be specific and articulate why you’re justified in calling us such.

    I am actually a person who loves life, who has many interests. I am fun-loving and kind and caring and reasonable, but I also have a strong sense of justice. That’s one of the main reasons I speak out against JWdom. The fact that I do so does not make me in general an angry and bitter person.

    Everything is not always black and white.

    Yes, you’re right; not everything is black and white, but a lot of things are. Black and white: you have poor writing and arguing skills. Black and white: JWs have a history that they don’t want known. JWs have been black and white wrong in their predictions. We have ample specific evidence of that.

    While I find that knowledge is a great learning tool, so would hatred be. I find similarities between this site and Muslim extremism

    Again, argumentum ad hominem. What, specifically, gives you the authority to make such a serious statement? You’re crossing a line that you shouldn’t cross by saying that. The great irony is that it is what we speak against (JWdom) that is more like extremism. I’m not saying that JWdom compares to Muslim extremism, but just that between us and JWdom, JWdom is closer to it.

    I’ve actually found this site to be fair and balanced and reasonable. I’ve seen even those with the strongest arguments against JWdom defend it against unwarranted speculation and wrong accusations.

    I do enjoy the lack of religious knowledge spread around here, it’s very entertaining.

    Argumentum ad hominem – yeah, again. So there is a lack of religious knowledge here??? That’s easy to say. Prove it. What is your evidence? In a year or two on this site I’ve gained more real religious knowledge and had my mind stimulated more than I did in four decades or more with JWdom. So are you a great fountain of knowledge?

    I believe someone else said, read the bible for yourself to get the truth. How ironic, that same philosophy is taught by the jW’s, so what’s the difference, just asking is.

    That philosophy is not taught by JWs. If it is “taught”, then it’s empty words. JWs don’t read the Bible to get truth; they read the Bible and look for ways to back up their doctrine while skipping over or twisting the parts that conflict with it.

    Hey maybe someday you all can start thinking about blowing up the headquarters or knocking off some JW’s to make you feel better, you know, like the Pharisees did with Jesus. You’re thinking it or have thought about it. You have become advocates of hatred, so why not go all the way, you know get it out of your system.

    You have gone too far now. How dare you even remotely suggest such a thing.

    Simon, I’m formally complaining. This type of speech should not be allowed here. Please ban this idiot.

    There was mention of Albert Einstein. A theoretical physicist when it accommodates your argument or just another cocaine addict when it doesn’t. You know, your flip-flop assertions.

    So you’re accusing us of flip-flops??? I hope you recognize the irony of that.

    So if you’re going to complain about the WT’s doctrines, then complain about EVERYONES.

    Why? You don’t tell us what to do. So a person who complains about one specific case is required to complain about all cases in the same category? Where did you get that rule?

    The blood policy, unnecessary deaths, harm, People have the right to choose, unless otherwise forced by man’s laws. Aside from that, what business is it of anyone here. If it’s a personal experience with a family member or close friend? Then, that’s up to them. This falls under private debate not public according to the laws of the land.

    I believe that the JW blood doctrine is scripturally wrong and I have a right to argue my point. JWs advertise their message, including the blood doctrine, to the world. Are you saying that I have to accept it without the right to challenge it?

    The WT caters to events that are ongoing at the time

    “The WT” caters only to itself. It has wrongly foretold the future, damaging thousands of lives (including mine), for over a hundred years.

    but wait, that’s what this forum is about, I forgot, to distort the truth

    Yep, again, argumentum ad hominem. Be specific. How has the truth been distorted on this forum? Have JWs not distorted the truth? What about the wrong use of quotations in the Trinity brochure and the Creation book?

  • Scully


    Why attack, indeed? Does the WTS hold back from its criticism of other belief systems, most notably the Catholic Church, including policies (such as aiding and abetting pedophile priests by moving them to other parishes rather than removing them from office) that are just plain wrong? They don't, do they? And I don't think they're wrong in doing so, except for the fact that their own egregious errors and massively poor judgement don't exactly recommend them highly as an organization so squeaky clean that it is above similar reproach.

    Are we, as exJWs, guilty of Persecution™ when we criticize the WTS? I don't think so. The fact that they criticize other religions makes them fair game actually. What was it that Jesus said?

    “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

    3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye." - Matthew 7:1-5

    And look at this excerpt from the WTS itself:

    It is not persecution for an informed person to expose a certain religion as being false. - WT 11/15/63

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