Why don't you just take it like a man?

by AK - Jeff 199 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Vinny

  I have obligations today so will to keep this short. (short for me anyway)

  I believe BOTH Jeff and Lola make excellent points. I understand both perspectives. Neither one is wrong, IMO.

  I too am disassociated (like Jeff) and my wife has faded (like both Jeff's wife and Lola).

  I personally lean more along the line of Lola's point of view when it comes to running into JW's which I do almost every day since I live on an island.

  The thing that I try to keep in mind (and which I have not seen you mention yet Jeff) is that for these indoctrinated JW's you run into; the shunning, avoiding, dissing etc etc, is for them A PART OF THEIR WORSHIP.

  They believe they must do this to move you to come back. Shunning you is part of pleasing God. For them it means their life and possibly your life. It is not meant so much as how you are taking it, as an attack against you as a person. Many JW's hate to even have to do it. They become very uncomfortable. But this arrangement (as wrong as it is) is a very integral part of their own worship, at least in their minds.

  Additionally, if they do not shun, avoid, diss etc you, then they believe God will look down upon them unfavorably. In fact they think YOU may lose your eternal life, by never coming back to the org, if they talk with you as if all is great and normal.

  Going even further, if they do not shun, avoid, diss etc you, then they can very possibly become LIKE YOU, and shunned, avoided and dissed themselves. And JW's report on other JW's all the time as we all know.

  They, simply put, THINK shunning you is the right thing to do for them, for you, for Jehovah, the cong, your family etc etc.

  I see them far more as victims rather than they are somehow assaulting me when I get the shunning deal.

  Just yesterday, an elder and his wife walked right by me and my wife. The elder was in front and had a scowl on his face looking hard and angry. But when the wife walked by she just kindly looked at me and smiled in a very caring way.

  BOTH reactions come from the very same place IMO. Neither spoke but both (scowl and kind smile) think they are doing the right thing to help me come back. And by our leaving the Watchtower Society some can take it personal as if we are attacking their religion to some degree just through our actions of leaving.

  I never bother getting into it during these personal encounters. They will never listen to me and there is no chance of getting anywhere but making things even worse for me and my wife. So I ignored the scowl faced husband and smiled back and winked at his wife. Both of whom I've given talks in their Hall when I was an elder.

  They are for the most part simply doing what they think is right. Just like you and I did it when we both thought it was right as well.

  But that sure doesn't mean I don't have my own brand of theocratic warfare to expose JW nonsense.

  Just this week I was all over a thread online on my local newspaper. I addressed a dozen or more JW's and exposed the religion quite throughly.

  A couple months ago I did the same thing on a USA Today article, which has huge visibility. (I just don't want to do this all the time).

  In each case the only way to describe what happened is to say the JW's were all SPANKED thoroughly by the arguments presented.

  And then they headed for the hills. And many other JW's sure did read it all. Just like here on this site and even this thread.

  These can be really excellent opportunities to help get JW's to start thinking outside of the little boxes they live in.

  I, like you, can get angry when my wife gets hurt with unfair JW shunning and nonsense. THAT can be a tougher challenge.

  But the above still equally applies that these folks are usually just doing what they personally are taught and believe is the right thing to do.

  Most really are just victims themselves here.

  At least we have found our way out!

  Hang in there.

  All the best,

  Vinny
• 

  AK - Jeff

  I appreciate the tone this portion of this thread is taking.

  This thread was intended to create a rich discussion rooted in well developed ideas. It has done that, IMO. Some lively discussion, and some very cerebral thinking likely going on in many minds of those who have chosen to view these ideas. Success.

  I agree with the general point that Jw's who do the shunning are 'victims of a mindset'. I also agree that if one has the personality and situation to fit it, it is far the best thing to just walk away and never look back. Unfortunately, most of us are not made that way. In some ways, those of us inhabiting small town-america [or small town anywhere for that matter], have a situation similar to Vinny's. I too frequently encounter the local Jw's in our little town.

  On the other hand, I also believe that there is room for action that can and often will make Jw's think about what they are doing. As much as we are different in the way we deal with this issue - so are Jw's - and that is my point. I believe that the 'revolution' begins with individuals. Attacking corportate Jwism as such is ineffectual, and I agree for the most part with our newest poster, Paulappolos in that. I do think that corporate Jwism can be inclined to morph in directions that may make it easier for people to exit the religion without great pain. That of course is the ultimate goal. We want Jw's to be able to legitimately choose to stay Jw's - or legitimately choose to leave the religion. Without speaking for others here, that is at least part of what I would like to see happen.

  Estimates are that perhaps there are a million or more of us out here who have left in recent years. That considerable number can have an effect on the corportation, either for the good or for the bad over time. I have no doubt that many changes, perhaps subtle in some cases, have been made over the past few years by this corporation. Some of those changes have been a result of what we have said/done here in cyberspace. Who is to say that what we do, that which directly creates uncomfortable feelings for Jw's [perhaps deep dissonance in some cases], cannot affect policies in a real way? I think that model is largely untested.

  Some of what we do is driven by anger - that is probably not nearly as effectual as that which we drive by design. Design that imparts dignity to victims on both sides of the situation. Those Jw victims who feel obligation to shun. And Xjw victims who feel obligation to make a difference in jw's ability to treat us with dignity.

  Jeff
• 

  AllTimeJeff

  Estimates are that perhaps there are a million or more of us out here who have left in recent years. That considerable number can have an effect on the corportation, either for the good or for the bad over time. I have no doubt that many changes, perhaps subtle in some cases, have been made over the past few years by this corporation. Some of those changes have been a result of what we have said/done here in cyberspace. Who is to say that what we do, that which directly creates uncomfortable feelings for Jw's [perhaps deep dissonance in some cases], cannot affect policies in a real way? I think that model is largely untested.

  AK Jeff, I think that the sheer number that have left, and have taken their stories to the internet, have created a dynamic of real worry. When Franz left, he wrote a book, all the GB had to do was (smugly) demonize one book and one man.

  But thousands of stories, repeating the same themes of abuse, dishonesty, deceit take their toll. I think the numbers, (though untested) do bear this out. Growth in most developed lands has slowed to a crawl. Japan seemingly overnight, went from exponential growth to decline.

  Some of what we do is driven by anger - that is probably not nearly as effectual as that which we drive by design. Design that imparts dignity to victims on both sides of the situation. Those Jw victims who feel obligation to shun. And Xjw victims who feel obligation to make a difference in jw's ability to treat us with dignity.

  I am torn sometimes as to the anger expressed, because I recall when I was still in that apostates were "angry", and when I first lurked here, I saw that anger in spades.

  Of course, I was also angry. I wanted my anger expressed constructively, and understood. Thus, that changed how I viewed some "over the top" comments.

  I think that a great lesson I learned (and one I frequently reflect on) is that there is a real undercurrent of frustration and anger within the rank and file of JW's right now: Young men wanting to be MS and Elders, but held back. Sisters who want to get married but can't find the right brother, lead very lonely lives and pine away for paradise later then a life right now. All because that is what they are taught to do. Suffice to say, they do it, for Paradise as paulappolos brought out, but that doesn't mean that resentment and frustration are not boiling underneath.

  When I pioneered and led a "simple life" (aka poverty) I was so pissed that I couldn't eat out, take vacations, and the like that I observed other JW's do. Why couldn't I? (oh yes, it was because I was doing this for Jehovah, now and for the future.) That in a nutshell is how I spent my 20's. In fact, if I dwell on it, I get furious, so I don't dwell on it... I was lied to and gave up an entire decade of my life as a result.

  So while I worry about how that anger is seen and portrayed by the GB sometimes, I actually think that as time passes, it resonates more because that anger is already bubbling under the surface of JW congregations in many places today.
• 

  beksbks

  Honestly, I don't give a damn what they think of apostates. Me included. If they are so weak minded as to be led by this group of men to indulge in the hatefulness that they DO, why in the world would I care what they think? I only care that those who have had the wherewithal to leave, find comfort and peace. By any means necessary.
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  WuzLovesDubs

  Some of the postings here are like those would say of a raped girl.... "Well you dressed provocatively so you GOT what you DESERVED! You went WITH him to his room didnt you? Nobody put a gun to your head to go in the first place. And you KNEW the consequences of your actions so dont be whining that you were RAPED."
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  Lucky Calamity

  I swear, you're quoting my mother up there. I'm sorry you had to receive this kind of crapola. Been there, know what it sounds, smells and feels like.

  sheesh! It's all about blame and shame with them . . .
• 

  beksbks

  Wuz!!! That is a perfect analogy! Makes me wonder where the heart is.
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  AK - Jeff

  I agree with Beks on this. Wuz has made the perfect analogy. I could not conjur it up - but yes, I do believe that is the way I feel.

  Jeff
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  lola28

  Oh that’s such bull, when you go on a date you don’t expect to be raped, when you put on your favorite outfit and walk out the door you don’t expect to get raped, when you leave the Watchtower you know exactly what o expect. You can’t sit around and say “well I never knew this would happen..”, shame on you for even trying to compare on situation to the other.
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  SixofNine

  Everything about lola28's witness experience is bizarre and outside-the-norm, so no reason to expect that her attitudes about the witness experience will be anything but bizarre and outside the norm.