Since you on the right won't answer this question. Abortion

by dawg 148 Replies latest jw friends

  • John Doe
    John Doe

    I'm not on the "right," but I'll throw my two cents in any way. I think there is little to no question that a zygote is living. Also, grass is living, trees are living, that fly you just swatted is living. I assume no one feels any qualms about destroying certain types of life, like flies, ticks, plants, etcs. So, the question of when life begins seems to be irrelevant to determining if said life needs to be protected. In other words, life by itself does not warrant governmental protection.

    On the other hand, a 9 month fetus is living but also has unquestionably human/individual characteristics. Most, if not all of us, would agree that a 9 month fetus is human and has a right to live. The question then becomes, when does this living organism become more than a living organism--a human that deserves to live? When does this baby become a sentient creature? I don't know if we can make a bright line rule to cover all cases, but my position is that a zygote is not human, posesses no personality, no brain functions, and is impervious to pain, emotions, and the other characteristics we associate with being human.

  • wha happened?
    wha happened?

    and women dump zygotes all the time whether by natural means or through contraception.

  • HappyDad
    HappyDad

    Dawg,

    Do you suppose the reason for this is the fact that most of us on the right have a real life now and don't give a damn about you or your fellow leftists who can't manage for themselves?

    I hope that one day that even you will have a life. At your age, you need to grow up already. But I suppose you have been stifled by your former JW life and can't grasp reality. Your mental acuity seems to be that of a 17 year old.

    HappyDad

  • wha happened?
    wha happened?

    Un called for. Sometimes Dawg annoys me but he set up a thread for discussion, not generalization and mud slinging. Anyone on the far left or right has the capacity for a life. Why is getting stifled by our JW past a crime? It's hard for all of us.

  • JeffT
    JeffT

    I wish each side with some credance to the other's belief structure. The Bible (and I believe many other religious writings) make it clear that we are distinct individuals in the womb. The US Constitution is clear that citizenship (and rights) begins a birth. However we will never find away out of this as long as both sides are taking absolutist positions. For those of us that believe that life begins at conception, the pro-choice movement's apparent assertion that a woman can has a right to abortion at any time comes perilously close to saying that she has a right to murder her children. Yet I can understand those that say the morality and ethics is convoluted at best. Certainly there isn't an easy answer for a woman who has been raped and is trying to figure out the right thing to do.

  • wha happened?
    wha happened?

    Thank u Jefft

  • John Doe
    John Doe

    I agree wha happened. Happy Dad, you've shown no class and have been insulting. You need to watch yourself.

  • SnakesInTheTower
    SnakesInTheTower

    Dawg...

    OK..seeing as I got hammered on my thread about politics and other rants, I can take a beating here.

    First, there is no god in my mind to fit into the equation. There may be a creator, but I dont believe such entity is in the equation either.

    Second, I am not pro-abortion, meaning I hate to see it happen. If I got a woman pregnant, then ultimately it would be her choice to give birth or abort. If she chose to give birth, then I would help take care of the child financially, even if the woman and I are not together. That was the chance I would be taking when I had sex with her. If she aborted, even if I offered to support the child or even adopt it myself, then I would respect her right to make the decision. Its her body that has to go through the whole pregnancy and child birth process. If she said she wanted to give birth but immediately give it up for adoption to someone other than me, I would respect that. I would only get to live with the choice, I would not have a vote. Not my body, just my sperm.....and the potential responsibility that entails for that "contribution".

    Third, In ANY case, it is up to the woman to make the choice. Yes, it is sad that the "life", no matter what stage, is to be sacrificed. However, the fetus has no knowledge that it is being aborted. Of course, it is quite likely that the fetus will feel pain as it is being sucked out and killed, depending on how advanced the pregnancy is. That knowledge is what the woman has to live with. And that is sad for both mother and child/fetus.

    Fourth, why should a rape victim be forced to carry a child she did not ask for, that was forced on her? It is bad enough the only way for her to be rid of it is to go through the horrid abortion process and maybe carry the psychological ramifications of not only a rape, but an abortion. Yes, it is sad the fetus loses its life. See above.

    Fifth, NObody should make a law forcing anyone to carry a child if they dont want it. NOR should anyone make a law forcing abortion. The woman should have the ultimate choice.

    Snakes (of the "preparing for rocks to be thrown" Sheep Class)

  • SixofNine
    SixofNine

    JeffT said:

    The Bible (and I believe many other religious writings) make it clear that we are distinct individuals in the womb. The US Constitution is clear that citizenship (and rights) begins a birth. However we will never find away out of this as long as both sides are taking absolutist positions. For those of us that believe that life begins at conception, the pro-choice movement's apparent assertion that a woman can has a right to abortion at any time comes perilously close to saying that she has a right to murder her children.

    Er, doesn't the bible also make clear that a fetus in the womb cannot be "murdered"? ( Exodus 21:22-25)

    In that scripture, if a man strikes a pregnant woman and causes her to abort, the penalties are civil penalties, ie: payment to the woman's husband. This is explicit proof that the Bible writer did not consider a fetus' life to be fully a person.

    Also:

    "Jewish law is quite clear in its statement that an embryo is not reckoned a viable living thing (in Hebrew, bar kayama) until thirty days after its birth. One is not allowed to observe the Laws of Mourning for an expelled fetus. As a matter of fact, these Laws are not applicable for a child who does not survive until his thirtieth day."

  • StAnn
    StAnn

    Ok, Dawg, I'll take the bait. Remember, you asked.

    I believe life begins at the moment of conception.

    I believe that God creates and instills a soul into the baby the moment it's conceived.

    As a mother who has miscarried three children, I never felt that I lost a zygote or a fetus; I lost a baby, I lost a child, and grieved that loss.

    According to the Journal of American Pediatrics, there is never a time when a baby "must" be aborted to save the life of the mother. The pediatricians say that, if necessary, a mother can have an emergency c-section if her life is in danger and then the pediatricians can try to save the baby. They may or may not be able to succeed but they will try.

    I believe that the mother's life and the baby's life are equally valuable.

    Rape and incest are tragic. In both cases, the woman is terribly abused and victimized. There is a book called, "Victims and Victors: Speaking Out About their Pregnancies, Abortions, and Children Resulting from Sexual Assault" by David C. Reardon. This is considered the most comprehensive study on this theme. In rape, the trauma is "someone hurt me." In abortion, the trauma is "I hurt and killed someone else: my child." Abortion is not a solution to the rape. I does not alleviate the pain and trauma of the woman who was raped. It merely adds a new trauma. Many rape victims feel pressured to have an abortion.

    It is unjust that a woman who has been raped must carry an unwanted child for nine months. It is a far greater injustice to kill the child. This is one of those cases where injustice can't be avoided.

    I've known many women who've had abortions for various reasons. I've only known one who didn't have terrible grief and lots of regret. It was a life-changing event for all of them.

    I'm "pro-choice," i.e., I believe we make a choice to have sex or not to have sex. If we choose to have sex, we risk pregnancy. I think abortion is merely after-the-fact birth control. Most of the women I know who had abortions did so because they were in college and it would mess things up for them, or they were in high school and were afraid to tell their parents. Inconvenience is not a good enough reason to take a human life, in my opinion. I think people want to have their cake (sex) and eat it too (not have any repercussions.)

    And for the person who mentioned women "dumping zygotes" via contraception, you are correct. Most women don't know that contraceptives are generally abortifascients. Which is one of the many reasons I also don't support contraception.

    And, no, I don't believe in capital punishment or euthanasia.

    Once upon a time I considered myself a strong feminist who supported all of the above. However, in time I found out that the feminist line I'd been sold for so many years was a lie that led to an empty life. So I did a little investigating and discovered that my thinking was flawed. So I changed. And that's how I got where I am today, so I don't blame people for being where I once was. They've bought the line they've been sold, too.

    It bothers me that people see babies as a liability. I often wonder if they even think about all of the wonderful things that child could contribute to society, were it allowed to live.

    Okay. all of you can fire away.

    StAnn

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