Since you on the right won't answer this question. Abortion

by dawg 148 Replies latest jw friends

  • BurnTheShips
    BurnTheShips

    http://www.consciencelaws.org/Examining-Conscience-Background/GenScience/BackGenScience06.html#02

    The scientific facts

    Before fertilization there exist a human sperm (containing 23 chromosomes) and a human ovum (also containing 23 chromosomes -- the same number, but different kinds of chromosomes).24 Neither the sperm nor the ovum, singly, by itself, can become a human being -- even if implanted in the womb of the mother. They are only gametes -- they are not human embryos or human beings. In contrast, the single-cell embryonic human zygote formed after fertilization (the beginning of the human being and the embryonic period)25 contains 46 chromosomes (the number of chromosomes which is specific for members of the human species) -- and these 46 chromosomes are mixed differently from the 46 chromosomes as found in either the mother or the father -- that is, they are unique for that human individual. And at the single-cell embryonic human zygote stage that unique individual human being is already genetically a girl or a boy.26 If allowed to "do his or her own thing", so to speak, this embryonic human zygote will biologically develop continuously without any biological interruptions, or gaps, throughout the embryonic, fetal, neo-natal, childhood and adulthood stages -- until the death of the organism. And with the advent of in vitro fertilization techniques, we can see that the early human embryo can develop in vitro on his or her own without the nutrition or protection of the mother for quite a while -- someday, perhaps, even until "birth"!

    I want to reiterate that a human gamete is not a human being or a human person. The number of chromosomes is only 23; it only acts or functions biologically as an ovum or as a sperm, e.g., it only makes ovum or sperm enzymes and proteins, etc., not specifically human enzymes and proteins; and by itself it does not have the actual nature or potency yet to develop into a human embryo, fetus, child, or adult. And in that sense gametes are only possible human beings (i.e., human beings who do not exist as yet). Only after the sperm and the ovum chromosomes combine properly and completely do we have a human being. Individually, the nature of a sperm is different from the nature of an ovum -- and both are different from the nature of the embryonic human zygote which is formed when their chromosomes combine.

    Thus from perhaps an Aristotle-the-biologist's point of view, one would say that before fertilization there are two natures -- i.e., the nature of an ovum and the nature of a sperm. After fertilization there is a human zygote with one nature, i.e., the nature of a human being. Thus, in fertilization there is substantial change,27 (i.e., a change in substance or nature -- or "what" it is). The substances or natures of the ovum and the sperm have changed into the nature of a human being. This is, in fact, known empirically by observing the number and kinds of chromosomes present before and after fertilization, and by empirically observing the different characteristically specific actions and functions of the ovum, the sperm, and the human zygote. Once fertilization has taken place and the new human being has formed, only accidental change28 occurs (e.g., a change in weight, height, size, shape, etc.), and we know this empirically as well. We can observe that the nature of the human being does not change (e.g., into a cabbage or a giraffe), only its human accidents change.

    Thus embryological development does not entail substantial change, but only accidental change. Once it is a human being it stays a human being, and acts and functions biologically as a human being. The human zygote produces specifically human enzymes and proteins; he or she forms specifically human tissues and organ systems, and develops humanly continuously from the stage of a single-cell human zygotic embryo to the stage of a human adult.29

    This is observed empirically. A human zygote does not produce cabbage or carrot enzymes or proteins, and does not develop into a rock, an ear of corn, nor into a cat, a horse, a chicken, or a giraffe. Empirically it is observed that a human zygote produces specifically and characteristically human proteins and enzymes at the moment of fertilization -- as demonstrated recently, for example, by experiments using transgenic mice30 -- and that he or she develops continuously throughout embryological development in a specifically and characteristically human way.

    In short -- the biological facts demonstrate that at fertilization we have a real human being with a truly human nature. It is not that he or she will become a human being -- he or she already is a human being. We know that empirically. And this nature or capacity to act in a certain characteristic way is called, philosophically, a nature or a potency.31 Thus a human zygote or embryo is not a possible human being;32 nor is he or she a potential human being;33 he or she is already a human being. A human zygote, embryo or fetus does not have the potency to become a human being, but already possesses the nature or capacity to be at that moment a human being. And that nature will direct the accidental development, i.e., the embryological development, of his or her own self from the most immature stage of a human being to the most mature stage of a human being.

    Now, this is strongly convincing empirical evidence that at fertilization there is present a human being (the well-referenced unequivocally agreed upon answer to the scientific question); but is there also a human person (a philosophical question) -- or not? These are two different questions -- one scientific, the other philosophical. It is in this shifting from the paradigm of a human being to that of a human person where the philosophy -- and the confusion -- come into play. Is a human being also a human person; or are they different things? Which philosophy is adequate to cope with this biological data?

    Now, this is strongly convincing empirical evidence that at fertilization there is present a human being (the well-referenced unequivocally agreed upon answer to the scientific question); but is there also a human person (a philosophical question) -- or not? These are two different questions -- one scientific, the other philosophical. It is in this shifting from the paradigm of a human being to that of a human person where the philosophy -- and the confusion -- come into play. Is a human being also a human person; or are they different things? Which philosophy is adequate to cope with this biological data?

  • sammielee24
    sammielee24

    Burn

    Are you against the morning after pill then?

    Fertilization = conception = human.

    No fertilization = no conception = no human.

    Just wondering on where you stand regarding the morning after pill.

    sammieswife.

  • worldtraveller
    worldtraveller

    Interesting to note mostly men responding.

    Government has no business in my wifes womb. Period.

    Also interesting to note that most pro lifers support life 'till one is born. Then hang 'em high.

    Is there anyone here that is pro life, but not pro death penalty? How about killing innocents in an unjust war? Just wondering.

  • BurnTheShips
    BurnTheShips
    Interesting to note mostly men responding.

    Plenty of women have responded here, and if it were majority men, what would be "interesting" about it?

    Government has no business in my wifes woumb. Period.

    No it shouldn't, but the government has as it's legitimate business the defense of innocent human life. Period.

    so interesting to note that most pro lifers support life 'till one is born. Then hang 'em high.

    I don't. I do not support the capital penalty.

    BTS

  • cognac
    cognac
    Every time sex occurs, conception does not. Every person who has sex is not fertile. Having sex doesn't mean that a baby has been created - just ask every man and woman dealing with infertility. Given those facts - a woman given the morning after pill has not aborted anything - she is taking a safety precaution only. It's no different than using a condom or any other birth control device or method because in reality all you are doing is trying to avoid a pregnancy - the morning after pill is used for those moments when the act has occured and you have concern that you might get pregnant. A person using a condom that breaks for example, having already used a contraceptive to avoid a pregnancy, should have no problem using a morning after pill as a simple safe guard.

    I know that there would be a small chance of conception. However, the idea that I could have concieved and then terminated the pregnancy would be something I personally could not live with.

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    So.... are we planning on resolving the abortion issue on this thread?

  • sammielee24
    sammielee24
    know that there would be a small chance of conception. However, the idea that I could have concieved and then terminated the pregnancy would be something I personally could not live with

    Would you use birth control then?

    Every time a women uses a contraceptive device of any kind, she's using it for one reason. So she won't get pregnant. She knows that if she doesn't use something that she could get pregnant. So - interfere with the process of fertilization and the matter is solved. The morning after pill does the same thing - it simply switches off the fertilization process so pregnancy doesn't happen. The only way someone can truly believe in no pill , is if they believe that sex should only be used to procreate. In that case then, they would never use birth control since the sex act has one objective and you would not put barriers in place. I would submit that rather than a woman take a birth control pill daily in order to avoid pregnancy, when she may not engage in sexual activity daily - it would be more efficient and effective to make the morning after pill available for use as birth control.

    There are some people that view birth control as abortions. They view a birth control pill whether it is taken before or after as being abortion. I don't see it that way - considering that fertilization does not occur immediately after sex. sammieswife.

  • sammielee24
    sammielee24

    Interesting to note mostly men responding.

    Government has no business in my wifes woumb. Period.

    Also interesting to note that most pro lifers support life 'till one is born. Then hang 'em high.

    Is there anyone here that is pro life, but not pro death penalty? How about killing innocents in an unjust war? Just wondering.

    An extremely high percentage, at least in the USA, also appear absolutely repulsed by the idea of national healthcare as well. So if the fetus is a person, then that person should have the same rights as all other people and in fact, should we go one step further and say they have more rights because they need our protection? Should not then, the government aka the people, willingly pay for healthcare for the woman carrying the child? Should not that care extend to the cost of the delivery and any assistance required by the mother for the child? Or do we contend that once breath is drawn, that we have no other obligation...sammieswife.

  • funkyderek
    funkyderek

    BurnTheShips:

    If it is a philosophical question, then you cannot scientifically prove when a person begins short of the single bright red line of conception.

    I concede that it's not a question we can answer easily. That does not mean we should abandon the attempt. It's like saying that because there's no scientific argument to conclusively say what the speed limit should be, that it should be zero.

    What are these qualities? Are they scientific qualities or is personhood a philosophical construct?

    It's a philosophical construct but the qualities that compose it can be measured scientifically.

    The "ethicist" said that dementia sufferers should get euthanized in order to preserve resources for healthier people. She said that the government should license people to be put down and stop being a drain on society. This implies that their lives are less worthy.

    They are less worthy, by any reasonable measure. It is only your bizarre insistence on putting humanity above personhood that would equate an intelligent conscious person with a mindless automaton.

    By six weeks, they will move on their own, and respond (draw away from) a needle if stuck during an amniocentesis.

    So, is response to stimulus a suitable criterion? Before this point, is it okay to abort?

    As for science, you are speaking of personhood as a criterion. Since you are a champion of science on this board, I am asking you what the scientific foundations is. Your nonresponse concedes that there is none, that this is a philosophical question.

    My nonresponse? Did you miss my response when I wrote that "of course it's a philosophical question"?

    When is this "brain birth" in the unborn? What is consciousness? When does it begin?

    The nature of consciousness is a huge question and does not need to be dealt with here. You have a reasonable working idea of what consciousness is and what I mean by it. This argument can proceed without a more nuanced understanding. One thing we can say for sure is that consciousness does not begin at conception or for many weeks afterward. It seems to begin to emerge at around the start of the third trimester.

    Exactly. You don't know do you? So abortion advocates that fall upon the "person" argument allow destruction of human life that could be a "person". They don't know what a person is, or when it begins, because there is no scientific answer.

    I'm all for erring on the side of caution, but that's possible without going all the way back to conception. After perhaps 18 or 20 weeks gestation, things start to get ethically difficult and there should certainly be debate about it, but not knowing everything doesn't mean we know nothing.

    It is not absurd, you are attaching the rights to philosophical/metaphysical attributes, not the thing itself.

    No, I'm attaching the rights to the thing that has those attributes. But it needs to have those attributes. And it is attributes like consciousness, or the ability to feel pain, or even the ability to reason that we should be considering, not whether an organism is a member of a particular species.

    It is a human being.

    Right, you keep saying that but you don't say why you want to give rights to anything that can be defined as a member of the human species, and denied to anything that cannot.

  • mrsjones5
    mrsjones5

    Way down deep I think this issue is really about control, birth control and women's rights over their bodies. Abortion is just the high emotional sexy part that gets played over and over.

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