by thirdwitness 597 Replies latest watchtower scandals
SHOULD MODERATERS LOCK THIRDWITNESS THREADS IF NO CONCRETE ANSWERS ARE FORECOMING?
I hate to see censorship of that sort. Let the evidence speak for itself. If someone doesn't like these sort of threads they can go to other threads. Let's not give the JW apologists the benefit of saying they were booted from the board. Let the facts speak for themselves. It will become very obvious (if it hasn't already.)
Auldsoul, maybe I need to expand my point of view a little more. You and I are in complete agreement from the beginning. I was just repeating myself on the splitting hairs thing. That's exactly what the pro-JW arguement tries to do on this topic.
In my illustration of flying Delta airplanes...
Let's say I chose to write about flying Delta airplanes somehow compared to flying with the Devil. And then several years later I flew a Delta Local airplane from Wichita to Dallas. But I chose to fly on a different carrier from Dallas to Mexico City (International). Later on an accuser says, "But I thought flying Delta was like flying with the Devil." Then my reply would be, "I never flew Delta, I flew Delta Local." The accuser would be in the right. Delta Local is still a part of Delta. UN/DPI is still a part of the UN.
There, the Delta illustration, expanded for your reading enjoyment.
Jayhawk....I totally understand your analogy. When I first heard of the U.N. issue, I did everything I could think of to prove it WRONG. I called the U.N. Headquarters in NY...wonder why I would call there to get the DPI/NGO Dept? I, of course, was TRANSFERRED to that department, showing that it was a department in the U.N. and apparently has a job that it carries out under and for the U.N. I also printed out a chart that shows all the many departments in the U.N and how they all eventually work up to the main body, just like branches on a tree.
Swalker
jayhawk1,
I agree, and your illustration would be very effective at overcoming the rebuttal that both active JWs and the WTS will surely bring to an accusation of having flown Delta. However, if they have also said that flying Delta Local is flying with the Devil and the accuser starts out by saying they flew Delta Local then there is nothing to rebut and no need to demonstrate that they are the same airline.
In other words, while only a hair-splitter would make the distinction requiring the illustration we have reams of proof that JWs and the WTS are hair-splitters on this issue. So why create the need to illustrate the relationship when the correct initial accusation cannot be overcome no matter how badly they wish otherwise?
My point is, if you say they joined the UN they can muddy the waters successfully in many cases with their reply. If you say they joined the UN/DPI, they have nowhere to go, there is nowhere to hide from that accusation. The UN/DPI is a secular organization that is off-limits for voluntary membership by Jehovah's Witnesses, and they knew it at the time they applied.
It is just a matter of anticipating the likely response to the UN accusation and preventing it from ever arising by accusing them of precisely what they did to begin with.
Respectfully,
AuldSoul
OK, there's a bit of confusion going on. So let me put this simply.
NO, the Watchtower did not JOIN the UN.
Yes, the Watchtower voluntarily and formaly ASSOCIATED with the UN.
Go here: http://www.un.org/aboutun/chart.html
It is the organizational chart for the UN. The UN has SIX principle organs; Trusteeship Council, Security Council, General Assembly, Economic and Social Council, International Court of Justice, and Secretariat. There are 17 UN departments reporting to the Secretariat. The DPI is one of those departments.
By creating a formal and voluntary association with the DPI you are, by logic, reason, and definition creating an association with the UN.
Whether they needed access to books, or credibility for lobbying on issues of human rights is moot. They formally, and voluntarily associated with the beast for ten years.
steve
CASE CLOSED!!!!!!!!!
Let me use an example that is not hypothetical.
A representative of the WTS tried to get in some certain part of the UN library facilities one day. He was told he couldn't get in unless he had an NGO pass. So they filled out the application and submitted the required information. They were then issued an NGO pass to access all the library facilities. They never signed any document saying they would agree to support the UN or even share the ideals of the UN charter. They did supply articles which they had written about the UN which was the only requirement stipulated on the application.
Every so often they filled out a form which told who would receive the cards or passes to get in the extensive library facilities and what fields they were intererested in. They also periodically supplied articles they had written about the UN. This of course was nothing new as the WT has always published articles about what the UN is doing and how they will not solve the problems of mankind but rather it is only God's kingdom that can do that.
Meanwhile, the UN released a brochure and press release saying among other things that NGOs agreed to support the UN. Then in 2001/2002 the UN began a new review process that required NGOs to agree to do things that the WTS had never agreed to do. When the WTS found out about the new criteria that had to be agreed to and that the UN was saying that NGOs must support the UN they basically said, 'Wait a minute. We did not agree to support the UN or its charter nor do we agree to do that now. Please remove us from your list of NGOs.'
It is quite simple. Apostates however want to villanize the WTS and exaggerate what really happened because it makes them feel better for leaving Jehovah and his people. It is just an excuse for doing what a person wants to do and thereby not having to answer to anyone or live a life in accord with the Bible and its principles. No more door to door work. No more meetings. Free to engage in whatever conduct a person desires.
Sorry, but those are the facts. But I think most of you already know that, don't you?
Auldsoul will you please briefly ask the questions that you feel I haven't answered and I will do so.
Meanwhile, the UN released a brochure and press release saying among other things that NGOs agreed to support the UN.
We've linked to documents from 1992 and 1995 that show there was no essential change in the requirements. You still haven't commented on those.
Also, the WT withdrew after the situation became public. You are mischaracterizing the way they diassociated themselves.
BTW, what did Mr Hoeffel say to your questions?
And for those who are trying to say that the UN is not a government so we do not have to be in subjection to them:
You are wrong. The Un is made up of many govenments. They are one of the superior authorities that we are to be in subjection to as long as they do not tell us to disobey God. For example, in Lebanon where UN troops are being sent in to keep the peace do you believe that it is not necessary to be in subjection to this authority. That there is no need to obey whatever rules they put in place such as curfews or off limit sites?
The Watchtower of October 1st, 1995 provides a clear description of how we should view the United Nations:
“In Bible prophecy, human governments are often symbolized by wild beasts. (Daniel 7:6, 12, 23; 8:20-22) Hence, for many decades the Watchtower magazine has identified the wild beasts of Revelation chapters 13 and 17 with today’s worldly governments. This includes the United Nations, which is depicted in Revelation chapter 17 as a scarlet-colored beast with seven heads and ten horns.“However, this Scriptural position does not condone any form of disrespect toward governments or their officials. The Bible clearly states: “Let every soul be in subjection to the superior authorities, for there is no authority except by God; the existing authorities stand placed in their relative positions by God. Therefore he who opposes the authority has taken a stand against the arrangement of God; those who have taken a stand against it will receive judgment to themselves.”—Romans 13:1, 2.“Accordingly, Jehovah’s Witnesses, who are maintaining strict political neutrality, do not interfere with human governments. They never foment revolution or participate in acts of civil disobedience. Rather, they recognize that some form of government is necessary to maintain law and order in human society.—Romans 13:1-7; Titus 3:1.“Jehovah’s Witnesses view the United Nations organization as they do other governmental bodies of the world. They acknowledge that the United Nations continues to exist by God’s permission. In harmony with the Bible, Jehovah’s Witnesses render due respect to all governments and obey them as long as such obedience does not require that they sin against God.—Acts 5:29.”
Thirdwitness claims the requirements for NGOs changed over the years. This press release from 1992 shows otherwise:
