Why all the venom? (page 11)

Junction-Guy

That's a darn good point acadian. If the "Truth" is really from Jehovah, then why do they need so many lawyers and all the legal ties to be successful in getting his message out?? They are not the truth, they are just a god dishonoring publishing company masquarading as a religion.

Fred E Hathaway

When Satan acts as a wolf, or his agents are wolves (sometimes in sheep's covering), there certainly is reason to have cried wolf, for over 125 years, or even close to 2000 as the New Testament has done. Every generation since the Apostle John's writing on the Isle of Patmos over 1900 years ago, Bible readers have known that Armageddon is just around the corner, don't worry about your career or even getting married, the time left is reduced, seek first the Kingdom and Jehovah's righteousness. Children born and raised into the Bible's teachings have been warned against the influences of Satan, the ruler of the world opposed to Jehovah. I John 2 & I John 5 contain several references to the world being under Satan's influence/control. Wanting to be friends with the world puts one at enmity with Jehovah God [James 2]. The Apostle Paul mentioned that godly devotion was vastly superior to bodily training. I wish that I had had Witnesses as parents, so that I too could have been rebuked for such a thing as wanting to get an education. Any who go to the KH still hear that Armageddon is so close, don't worry about your career or future, just put your trust in Jehovah's promise of a new world shortly to come. The reason is found at 2 Peter 3:9. Jehovah's Word teaches that competition is not the high prize that the world claims [Galatians 6:4,5]. As King David well pointed out at Ps 37:25, so the Apostle Paul reiterated at Hebrews 6:10. Jehovah certainly does support those who have true faith. Even with the likes of Hitler and other dictatorships throughout the generations that have vowed to exterminate JWs. It's gone on all the way back to Abel. Abel thought things through alright, even as Noah, Lot, David, Jesus, Stephen, and the Apostle Paul did. Lots of ingenuity and character all the way through. Some talk about a decent living for their families. Are they referring to decent people, or highly competitive; they can't have it both ways. Some praise emotional development of children. Are they referring to people who are lovingly giving the warnings to all without partiality, or to those who feel that retaliation has its place; God will remain true even if all defame his name.

restrangled

Human Nature....

The Jehovah's Witness ultimate goal that everyone should talk the same, think the same, react the same goes against our human nature. So when someone buys into this WTS mindset, it is shocking for them to find out that human nature doesn't really operate that way. You can stifle someones opinion, or intimidate them into not being vocal about their oposition, howevre that doesn't change their deep down convictions.

There are some active JW's on this forum that are honest enough admit to the voice in the back of their head that acknowledges their misgivings. There are also the ones who when called on the WTS BS eventually make statements like, well we never said we were perfect or if not the JW's then who else, (without really wanting to know who else).etc....

Human nature says call a spade a spade. Some people call that venom. some people call that honesty..

dedpoet

I wish that I had had Witnesses as parents, so that I too could have been rebuked for such a thing as wanting to get an education.

Fred, are you serious? If so, then Little Toe was right - you are full of shyte.

LittleToe

Fred:
You traverse land and sea to make one convert, but make them twice as liable to Gehenna as yourself (Matt.23:15).

shunning [1 Cor.5]

You misapply an extreme situation, straining out the gnat and gulping down the camel, unlike Jesus (Matt.23:24; Joh.9:34-38)

blood [Acts 15]

Another specific situation that bears little relevance to the modern day (Rom.14:14, 15)
Why do you keep certain commandments but eschew others in an arbitary manner? (Ex.20:1-17)

door to door [Acts 20]

Is that the purpose of every individual? (Eph.4:11; Jam.3:1)
Do you really think you'll get life by such "works"? (Matt.7:21-23)

and also being upset at Jehovah being blasphemed [Matthew 4].

What about your brother being blasphemed? (Matt.5:22)
Or even worse, the Holy Spirit, whom you blaspheme by completely snubbing Him? (Matt.12:31, 32)

Further, there are absolutely no documents supporting the claim that any name other than "Jesus" should be used in the New Testament. To interpolate "Jehovah" is adding something (Deut.4:2; Rev.22:18)

I took the time to read your quotes. Will you ake the time to read mine, I wonder?

Fred E Hathaway

We do know that Jesus does intercede for those who are part of his body, his congregation.

Yes he does...But the WTS as a state created corporation, which is [definitely] part of the world, is not part of "Christ's" congregation.
You cannot be incorporated with the State and claim you are no part of the world
What fellowship does Jesus or Jehovah have with the State/world as a corporation?
If you say for legal reasons, then you admit your God has no power to protect you or his people. Rather than trusting in God and relying on his protection, you rely on MAN's Government instead. YOU are either incorporated in Christ, or YOU are incorporated in the World. We know which incorporation the WTS has... Acadian

Certainly the political elements can serve Satan's interests, thus being part of the world, in that sense. However, at times, the political elements serve Jehovah's interests. Otherwise, why would Joseph and Daniel been prime ministers, or Esther have been a Queen, Cyrus been named in prophecy as Jehovah's executioner? Why would the Apostle Paul have been eager to testify before the Sanhedrin, Governors Felix and Festus, King Herod Agrippa II, and Caesar Nero — and prepared for such by the holy spirit? If the WTS should not have been incorporated in all the various countries by the statutes of each, then it would be equally wrong to register a marriage before secular authorities, or even one's vehicle with the State!! No, JWs have a reputation of being decent, law-abiding people, even if political neutral. The existing authorities stand placed in its relative position by [Jehovah] God [Romans 13:1; compare Isaiah 54:5].

JWdaughter

Lynnmelo said: Think about some of the things that people get angry about: disfellowshipping, shunning, blood issue, going door to door, etc. All of these have a scriptural basis, no matter how much any of us wishes it didn't. The Witnesses aren't making this stuff up. The facts are that God does require much from us, and many of us are not prepared to meet those requirements because we don't want to give up the things in our life that make us so much a part of this world, something that the Bible tells us we shouldn't be. I don't know the specific scripture, but I know that in the Gospels somewhere Jesus says something like if anyone loves his own life more than he loves Jesus that person cannot be saved. These are the facts. We can't get angry at the Witnesses for pointing those out." Actually, the Witnesses have taken statements in the Bible and twisted them. They don't make things up so much as they 'extrapolate' to such a degree that they do become pharisaical. For example. The 'blood issue' was clearly an OT issue relating to the use of the blood of slaughtered animals. That were eaten. The WT has 'extrapolated' this belief into forbidden blood transfusions from living human beings to other living human beings to keep them alive. The reason? Respect for life. Right. For another example: The disfellowshipping/shunning. They have taken a few statements in the Bible, applied it to their religion exclusively (if you aren't a JW then you are serving satan) and therefore shun anyone who chooses not to be a JW after having association with them. Including family members. Minor children. And who makes the decision? Usually a body of 3 elders. It is NOT biblically handled at all. Being disfellowshipped for a job, or for getting a blood transfusion or for saying that the WT is wrong on some issue. NOT cursing God, denying Jesus, unrepentant and blatant immmorality. For not toeing the WT party line. It is secretive and unbiblical actually. For another example: door to door work. They use their door to door work as some kind of proof that they and only they are doing what Jesus said to do. If you are a scholar, look up the issue, check the language, read the references and cross reference. There is no clear indication in the scriptures that the original followers of christ ever did anything REMOTELY like the WT encourages the 'house to house' work. It is another way that they have twisted the scriptures. The WT takes a statement such as being 'no part of the world' and extrapolates that one should not be in any way politically active, should not vote, should not even be in the boy scouts! It is going beyond what is written. I am vitriolic when I see it hurting people I care about in my family and among friends online and off. Mostly, I just think they and you are terribly deluded by their scripture twisting and manipulation. I think it is sad that you (who have some education) have been bamboozled by their convoluted reasoning.

Edited to say-sorry, responding to a year+ old post!

Fred E Hathaway

There certainly are many opinions about Jehovah's ways, but we are all just the clay. Who are we to say to the Potter what he should make of us? If He condemns through His Word, then all intelligent creatures should condemn. Love what he loves; hate what he hates. Love the sinner; hate the sins.

acadian

Fred

If the WTS should not have been incorporated in all the various countries by the statutes of each, then it would be equally wrong to register a marriage before secular authorities, or even one's vehicle with the State!!

Keep this Truth in mind...God ordained rulers with only two duties...to reward good and punish evil (John 18:23, Romans 13:3-4, 1 Peter 2:14). That's it! Anything they do beyond this is out of their ordained duties. Ask yourself this question, "Do licenses reward good or punish evil?" No, they do not. Courts are supposed to, but licenses have nothing to do with rewarding good or punishing evil.

When the powers that be say that you have to have a license to do something, we have to ask ourselves, "am I doing the will of God by taking a license?" When one gets a license, it is an agreement with the State to perform a particular duty. You are receiving a privilege, and whenever you receive a privilege from man there is a duty attached to it. And we must ask ourselves, "who are we binding ourselves with?" By receiving a privilege, we are gaining the favor of rulers; but scripture says, "Many wait on the favor of rulers; but justice comes to a man from the LORD" (Proverbs 29:26). We are not to be unequally yoked together with unbelievers (2 Corinthians 6:14).

Papers give status, dignity and privilege to the issuing authority rather than to the bearer — although the opposite is generally assumed. This is equally true in the case of passports, driver’s licenses, honorary degrees, permits to practice law, licenses for marriage, or even certificates of good health. In all such cases the individual unwittingly surrenders his right to assume command, status, or direction of himself in God's terms by acknowledging and then accepting an outside authority’s right to grant these things to him. For example:

One who hangs a degree on the office wall unwittingly admits that he has forfeited his power of discernment to an institution.
One who uses a drivers license has forfeited his God ordained duty to movement in exchange for a government priviledge which can be revoked at any time by the State.
National governments use birth certificates to "prove" that the baby is national property. The birth certificate thus becomes a form of theft, the theft of the child’s true identity as a free child of God to a servant of the State. By affixing a national seal of approval to a child, the state denies the freedom, rights, and dignity that God has ordained in the scriptures.
A national passport legitimizes and represents the arbitrary frontier of a particular nation. As property of the government that issues it, this license can be denied for virtually any reason. In essence, it is a control device, used by government to limit the movement of its citizens, and to regulate the entry and exit of ‘foreigners. When you are issued a passport, you are actually giving something up — your inalienable right to ‘leave any country’ and return again. In order to travel, you are forced to accept a bureaucratic device designed deliberately to control your movement. In legal terms, such a deceptive inducement to surrender a God-given right is called fraud. Thus, if you have such a document, in a sense you have been robbed. To put it plainly, the national passport system is a swindle, the conscious theft of the individuals right to freedom of movement. In the world of nation-states, claims that citizens have freedom of travel are a hollow mockery. All states collude in perpetuating this fraud, beginning with their use of the word ‘passport’ itself. The name of the document implies that it recognizes the right to travel when, in reality, it does just the opposite.

The basis of this argument centers around two basic tenets dear to all servants of Christ. One: "What is required to fulfill the Law?" And, two: "By whose authority do the licensers do the things they do?" The answers can be summed up in two Scripture verses. To answer the first, turn to Romans 13:8, "Owe no man anything, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law." When you have fulfilled the law of God, what other duty is there? (Ecclesiastes 12:13). All other duties are an interposition between yourself and God. Thus, licensure is such an interposition, because it creates a new obligation to another outside of love and God. It becomes an addition to the Word of God. Licensure is not love; licensure is loveless and lawless. The term "license" is from the word "licentious", which means "morally unrestrained, disregarding rules, lascivious".

To answer the second, turn to John 3:17-18. Can the condemned create law? Can one who does not believe in Jesus Christ create law? Can one who only believes in the limited reason of man be fulfilling the Law of God?

The spirit of fear always drives you to self-will. The problems and the errors of our ways are from a spirit of fear. If you're going to allow somebody to drag you around with your fears, then you're no longer worshipping God, but you're worshipping the man who has control over you through fear.

When we succumb to intimidation from the godless rulers of our time to submit our private property, our household pets, and even our children to licensure from the State, we are acting as if Christ, the King, no longer owns and rules over all things, but has been Himself vanquished by His enemies. Simply put, we are violating the very First Commandment, which tells us, "Thou shalt have no other gods before me" (Exodus 20:3).

License: The lawful definition of a license is, "A permit to do that which, without the license, would be illegal to do". In other words, the government makes something that was lawful to do, illegal. Then they tell you that if you pay the government money (a bribe), then they will turn their backs and give you a permit that allows you to break the law that they just said was illegal to do!

Marriage license:

Marriage was ordained by God (Genesis 2:23-24, Mark 10:6-9, 1 Corinthians 7, 1 Timothy 5:14, Hebrews 13:4). Speaking of marriage, Jesus himself said,

"What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder"

(Mark 10:9). Yet, this is exactly what the men of government do today by saying marriage is illegal; they put asunder the institution of marriage! Remember, if anyone does anything today without a license from the government, it is an illegal act; and there's a strong possibility of getting penalized, fined and imprisoned. Marriage is no exception. Marriage is illegal!

If it is God’s Will to bring two souls together in Holy Matrimony, what right does mere man have to say two souls cannot get married, until they ask the government for permission?! Until they pay the government their hard earned money to get a license to exercise God’s Will? Does mere man have authority, at law, to interpose himself, or his purported law, between God’s Will, and to bring punishment on a servant of Christ for exercising God’s Law? Could it be evil to execute the Law of God? Could it?

Preaching license:

Jesus commanded us to preach (Matthew 10:7, Mark 16:15, Luke 9:2,60, 1 Corinthians 1:17; 9:14,16, 2 Timothy 4:2). What right has man to say we cannot preach anymore until we bribe the government with a fee to get a license to do what God has already commanded us to do? According to the scripture, man is forbidden to charge a fee to preach the gospel of Christ:

"What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel."

(1 Corinthians 9:18).

Fishing license:

God has already given us permission to fish freely (Genesis 1:26,28, Habakkuk 1:15, Matthew 17:27, John 21:10). What right has mere man to say it is now illegal to do what God has already told us is lawful to do? Who owns the fish and water anyway? (Exodus 19:5, Psalm 24:1, Isaiah 44:24, 2 Corinthians 5:18).

The Lord has provided those fish for us. The natural man does not have dominion over those fish. The Lord uses him to make sure those things are not ravished, but if you're fishing for whatever you need at that time to eat, then there's no license that controls that; those are a gift from God. And if someone says to you that you must have a license to fish, you may reply, "My Father has provided these fish for me. And nowhere in His Word does it say that I have to have a license to eat those fish. I'm not here for my wants. I am not abusing the fish, I am only going to take what I need."

Now, if you're fishing for commercial gain, then you're engaged in commerce and you've come under the commercial laws, because you're trying to profit off of God's creation. And the natural man will have jurisdiction over that because you're engaged in evil. We're not to profit off of His creation; we don't need to because he provides for our needs through our labors. When one goes to commercial activity and gain, they're actually trying to grasp more than what we really need, and that goes to the wants.

If you have enough, then you're blessed. Why do you need to spend your life constantly trying to scrape up more? And when all of your needs are met, you have less than everyone else but that's actually a blessing because of the Peace in it. And that's the true Peace of the Lord, not the peace that the world thinks they know, because there's no peace in the world.

Pet license:

God’s very first command to man was to take care of the creatures upon the earth (Genesis 1:26-28). What right has the government to say it is now illegal to take care of God’s creatures? Who owns the animals? (Exodus 19:5, Psalm 24:1, Isaiah 44:24, 2 Cor.5:18). How can we register with Caesar (the State) those things (animals) that belong to God? (Mark 12:17).

Birth license:

Also known as a birth certificate. Since it is almost impossible to get a license today without a birth certificate, and it is almost impossible to do anything today without a license, then one cannot interact in society without this permission slip issued by Caesar. How ridiculous that anyone would ask for "proof" that you were born! That is basically what a birth certificate is. But is not the fact that you are breathing proof enough that you were born?

God says he knows us and sanctifies us before we are formed in the belly and before we are physically born (Jeremiah 1:4-5). So, according to God, we come into existence before our physical birth. The government says we come into existence after our physical birth, thus denying the scriptures. To a bondservant of Christ, it is not the first birth from corruptible seed that’s important (1 Peter 1:23), but our second birth, when we’re "born again" (John 3:3,7), that’s important. The first birth is of the world, the second birth is of God (John 1:12-13). If we say we were "born" after we came out of the womb, then we are denying we were born of God. We are then of the world, and not of God.

Work license:

God says,

"...the labourer is worthy of his hire"

(Luke 10:7) and

"six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work"

(Exodus 20:9), but man says the labourer is not worthy to be hired, and shall work zero days per week, especially if he doesn’t have a number issued by the government. God says,

"... The labourer is worthy of his reward.."

(1 Timothy 5:18), but man says the labourer is only worthy of half his reward, the other half must be withheld from his pay. God says,

"...the workman is worthy of his meat."

(Matthew 10:10), but man says the workman is only worthy of half his meat, the other half must be withheld from his pay. But God condemns the withholding of wages (Jeremiah 22:13, Malachi 3:5, James 5:4, Deuteronomy 24:14).

Drivers license:

Liberty is given to us by God (Galatians 5:1). Liberty is the freedom to go from one place to another without interference. Jesus Christ already set us at liberty (Luke 4:18, Romans 8:13, 2 Corinthians 3:17), and there are already restrictions in the scripture for using our liberty (Galatians 5:13, 1 Peter 2:16).

As Paul says, "…why is my liberty judged of another man's conscience? For if I by grace be a partaker, why am I evil spoken of for that for which I give thanks?" (1 Corinthians 10:29-30).Why does government, "…spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage" (Galatians 2:4). "While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage" (2 Peter 2:19).

restrangled

There certainly are many opinions about Jehovah's ways, but we are all just the clay. Who are we to say to the Potter what he should make of us? If He condemns through His Word, then all intelligent creatures should condemn. Love what he loves; hate what he hates. Love the sinner; hate the sins.

Is that what Jesus did? Spent his life condemning people? When I view JW's, do I see shining examples of Jesus?

Why all the venom?

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