Why all the venom?

by lynnmelo 175 Replies latest members adult

  • J-ex-W
    J-ex-W

    lynnmelo---- Welcome to the forum!

    Let me ask you: What's your stand on marital rape and spousal abuse? Because--the Witnesses won't tell you this while you're studying, but--you find out real quick what their stand on it is when you're on the wrong end of it: It's 'unscriptural' to divorce your mate even to protect yourself under these circumstances.

    Self-actualization, personal safety, and dignity within the home--and my SANITY!--are what Jehovah's Witnesses wanted me to give up...supposedly to be well pleasing in the eyes of the lord. And there are MAAAA-NNNN-YYY more like me, as I finally found out after coming to this forum! Their policies protect the abuser every time. Every time! It's a refrain I've begun to sing after many years in hopes of helping prevent someone--anyone!--else from going through the pitfalls that I, and so many others, have endured before them....

    Stick around here a while...take some to read some bio's and read some people's earlier posts...and feel free to PM me and even some others while you're trying to figure this one out. I've been where you are (except for the courage part...I jumped right in, and wish to God now that I never had!). I hope to prevent you from ever being where I now am.

  • HockeyMullet
    HockeyMullet

    And there's always a jerkoff to point that out, huh? The smartass comment wasn't needed.

  • Fred E Hathaway
    Fred E Hathaway

    I'm working at correcting my own thinking, actually. This interaction, poor at it may be, seems to beat isolating myself as I'd been doing.

  • dedpoet
    dedpoet

    I'm working at correcting my own thinking, actually. This interaction, poor at it may be, seems to beat isolating myself as I'd been doing

    I can understand that Fred, and despite our conflicting viewpoints,
    you are very welcome here as far as I am concerned

    I did that myself, when I was having doubts about the wts. I
    stayed away from the kh, (is that what you're doing?), and instead
    thoroughly researche the wts teachings. I came to the conclusion
    that they did not have the truth, and consequently left the org.

    I'm not suggesting you do that, of course. Each of us needs to
    choose our own path, and we are all entitled to respect for the
    choice we make.

    However, the interaction on here is what you make it, and if you
    put forward a point of view that others don't agree with, they will
    let you know about it. As I'm sure you are aware, most of us on
    here have little or no love for wts teachings nowadays, so
    while we respect your right to hold an opinion of them which
    conflicts with that of the majority of posters, don't expect us to
    agree with you.

    dedpoet

  • J-ex-W
    J-ex-W

    Taoist Dude-------- Isn't Taoism supposed to center around peace?

    You're right--I didn't read the date,. But someone obviously thought it was important to bring the thread forward to our notice again at the present time. And won't it be nice for lurkers and other newbies to see that, regardless of passage of time, the need and reasons to speak out and support runs just as deep as ever....

    BTW, Taoist-- Welcome!!

    And Welcome, other newbies as well!!

  • AuldSoul
    AuldSoul
    The doctrines are correct: shunning [1 Cor.5], blood [Acts 15], door to door [Acts 20], and also being upset at Jehovah being blasphemed [Matthew 4].

    The doctrines are also not correct: requirements for Christian baptism (Acts 2; 8; 10; 16), handling wrongdoing in the congregations (Matthew 18:15-17; 1 Timothy 5:20), disfellowshipping persons for attending centers of non-Christian worship ( Acts 2:43-3:10; Acts 5:17-21), disfellowshipping for speaking to or associating with someone who has been expelled from the Kingdom Hall (John 9, 10), the "new light" doctrine (Proverbs 4:14-19; Galatians 1:6-9) ...

    ... the list goes on and on. Stick with any one of the ones that are flatly wrong and explain your way out of it. Table the debatably wrong doctrines until you have satisfactorily established the (non-existent) Scriptural basis for the flatly wrong doctrines.

    In fact, Fred E. Hathaway, since a former poster named Grissom#### was such a complete waste of a JW defender why don't you see if you can take up the 6 challenges he left completely untouched:

    Grissom, will you stand by your words?

    Can you really defend your beliefs Scripturally, Fred? Or are you all talk with no real insights?

    —AuldSoul

  • Fred E Hathaway
    Fred E Hathaway

    Thanks, dedpoet, for your congenial approach and welcome, though it seems that we all have to earn it. Tough, weather-beaten, ragtag bunch — if I do say so myself. It's either facing conflicting viewpoints, or a competitive world. This seems more interesting.

    I've been the self-destructing type. Hopefully, interaction with live folks will change that. I'm regular as clockwork at the KH, actually. It's been that way, and increasingly so for years. Sing my heart out, say amen to the prayers, and take notes in enforced silence the rest of the time with a 4-color pen. Lots of research in the Hebrew and Greek using Strong's Concordance and lots of versions in my own personal library and online, including several other-language translations. Mostly solitary for the last few years. Now I guess I'm ready to stand again, though I didn't stand right when I did it before.

    All the things I thought didn't line up have pretty well all gradually inched forward. When a person worships a God who lives forever, what's a few years of waiting here or there. These last few years I've suffered the effects of Multiple Chemical Sensitivities, so I've appreciated the gradual increase in awareness of those around in the KH, less perfume, no tobacco use by the JWs themselves. It's all helped.

    What you say is so true: Each of us needs to choose our own path, and we are all entitled to respect for the choice we make. When a person's done most of his own upbringing, it's hard to know how to give respect a lot of the time; but when we see it shown, it means a lot. Then there's the matter of understanding about consequences, which I've still got a lot to learn about.

    I try to look beyond the WTS to what Jehovah must be saying. We're each in our own space, with so many voices around. I believe the Mormons are right when they say that the Bible can be believed when it is translated correctly. We're all works in progress, with a few good points of understanding, and others that need some work. If we don't show love among ourselves who we can at least read comments from, how do we show love for those we can't. All of us need to breathe, and eat, and exercise, and experience nourishing love. All that depends on Jehovah helping us — with rain, with sunshine, with support from those we know and those we don't. Just think of all the hands we don't know about that helped bring such a simple thing as a banana to our table. We're all dependent on Jehovah and interdependent on other humans.

    And Jesus' half-brother James did mention the fountain that can't be both bitter and sweet at the same time, so why should we? It all boils down to love of God and neighbor. Sometimes love warns, sometimes it laughs, sometimes it just talks or listens. And, hopefully discussions like this help bring out the best in all of us. There is a season, Turn, Turn, Turn, ...

  • AuldSoul
    AuldSoul

    Fred,

    God isn't fixing an organization he never had anything to do with. What you are observing as changes are only Corporate responses to two competing variables: Tolerance for change in the leadership and pressure for change from the adherents.

    ALL companies and religions change. None of them is God's company or religion just because they change. That includes the one you pledged allegiance to on your baptism day.

    *** w85 6/1 p. 30 Subjecting Ourselves to Jehovah by Dedication ***

    At the close of the convention baptism talk, the baptism candidates will be in position to answer with depth of understanding and heartfelt appreciation two simple questions that serve to confirm that they recognize the implications of following Christ’s example. The first question is:

    On the basis of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, have you repented of your sins and dedicated yourself to Jehovah to do his will?

    The second is:

    Do you understand that your dedication and baptism identify you as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses in association with God’s spirit-directed organization?

    Having answered yes to these questions, candidates are in a right heart condition to undergo Christian baptism.

    Where is the Scriptural basis for these questions? There is none offered because there is no basis in the Bible. This verbal contract is unnecessary for Christian baptism, but is required for JW baptism.

    And you still are not doctrinally allowed to talk to Jesus. John did it. Paul did it. You can't. Doesn't that make it tough to have a personal relationship with your savior?

    —AuldSoul

  • Fred E Hathaway
    Fred E Hathaway

    Jesus' own name means Jehovah is Savior. Jehovah used Moses as the first mediator, with priests, in the Old Covenant. Jehovah used Jesus as the second mediator, with overseers, in the New One. Since Jesus is Jehovah's Son, Jesus is younger than Jehovah, the only one created exclusively by Jehovah, the firstborn of all Creation, the first to be resurrected to immorality, the only one resurrected exclusively by Jehovah.

  • Fred E Hathaway
    Fred E Hathaway

    That article you cited, "Subjecting Ourselves to Jehovah by Dedication", w1985/6/1 pg.29-31 show quite a few verses, both leading up to and following the 2 questions. On the other hand, perhaps you or others would be interested in how I understand these 2 questions.

    1. They both assume that 2 Timothy 3:16-17 is true. The Bible certainly discusses the earthly life and death of Jesus Christ, prophetically, as live history in the making, and reflectively.
    2. The whole aspect of sin and Jehovah's remedy for it takes us back to Genesis 3, especially verse 15, with a battle of two seeds.
    3. Since Satan is introduced to us in Genesis 3 as the Original Serpent [supported by Revelation 12], and since Satan defected, then it has been necessary that people separate themselves from Satan's rule by direct action.
    4. A baptism of repentance was introduced by John the Baptist/Baptizer. Several antitypes including the conversion of Naaman the leper could be cited. Abraham, the Father of those with Faith, had to leave his charmed life in Ur for a life in tents. And if that sacrifice were not enough, he then as-good-as sacrificed his son Isaac, prefiguring Jesus' own sacrifice.
    5. The nation of Israel was dedicated to Jehovah from its inception, and was prefigured by such examples as Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, and Job. The law was now to be written on the heart, instead of by stone. So an individual's dedication to Jehovah naturally replaces the old way of being born into a set of laws.
    6. Isaiah 43:10 gives the most direct reason for Jehovah identifying a group as his witnesses. The modern fulfillment began in 1931 when it was revealed that Jehovah's Witnesses was the name they should be using, rather than simply International Bible Students. The context fits with their clear separation for true worship, based on exclusive devotion, a principle articulated clearly since the time of the Ten Commandments.
    7. Given that unity is such as strong identifying mark in such places as John 17, Ephesians 4, and 2 Timothy 2, it is not surprising to me that the term organization is used. There was even a Governing Body in Jerusalem making decisions, under the guidance of the holy spirit. We note places like Acts 15 for a well-known example of this.
    8. Given that the Bible is authored by Jehovah, and that all life (both spiritual and physical) is a result of Jehovah's spirit [ruakh] which first appears in Genesis 1:2, it follows logically that Jesus would leave the newly formed congregation the gift of holy spirit, with its initial manifestation of speaking in tongues.
    9. Of course, dedication, baptism, and being trained in public ministry were hallmarks of Jesus' disciples. The 12, ..., the 70, ...
    10. We can call to mind such inspired counsel such as the letter of Jesus' own half-brother James, where he discusses the the need for an active faith, not one that just looks good on the outside.

    Given that the Creator is the Sovereign of the Universe, and that even Satan was to worship Jehovah [Matthew 4:10], I see no other set of questions more penetrating than the 2 baptismal questions you state. Once one is baptized, these certainly are the questions to keep in focus. From the yes to these 2 questions naturally flow the life-long requirements for meeting attendance, sacred service, Bible study, prayer, and upbuilding association. The whole body of Scripture naturally supports the 2 questions as well.

    In fact, the first question reflects the greatest commandment, to love Jehovah with heart, soul, mind, and strength; the second one reflects the other primary commandment, to love one's neighbor as oneself.

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