Do we have "Free Will" or is it an illusion?

by Rod P 134 Replies latest members private

• 

  OldSoul

  frankiespeakin: So while it may appear we have choosen, it is really all "cause and effect" just like the rest of the universe.

  Apply that thought to child molestation. Apply that thought to the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. Apply that thought to the Governing Body.

  Then tell me, is there any accountability for any action under such an unprovable belief system? I phrased the question that way because your premise is as unprovable as mine, but your premise excludes the possibility of anyone being accountable for any act.

  Respectfully,
  OldSoul
• 

  LittleToe

  The difficulty of reducing the concept to A + B = C is that it takes little account for the way life is more like a series of overlapping waves. Life is far more complex than a simple equation. It might be asked, is it a complex one, however?

  EW:
  I forget if I've asked yourself, or DDog, this before:
  Have you read "Human Nature in it's Fourfold State", by Thomas Boston?

  I would posit that if we are made of merely natural components then we may ultimately be reduced to our mechanical (albeit complex) choices. If there's a hidden "super"natural dimension to our existence, then there are potentially factors outwith our ken.

  Theologically, does man have a choice to respond or not? Is this the limit of his responsibility?

  I've been fine, thanks, and you?

  OldSoul:Accountable to what/who/whom?
• 

  zen nudist

  all of us seem to be sharing the only present moment that exists...now.

  none of us seem able to alter a single step that brought us here.

  conclusion-- everyone is exactly where they must be, they cannot be anywhere else....

  if you accept reality as you find it without comparisons to any fantasy ideal worlds than every moment is perfectly what it must be and should be.

  our concepts of good and evil arise from rejecting reality as we find it in comparison to fantasy ideals from false beliefs and irrational religions with god's who claim to know all but reject the very reality they always knew.

  our beliefs, when irrational, cause our actions to be irrational. we attack others for not living up to the fantasy ideals our religion culture or traditions demand of them... we accuse others of being evil when they are only being what they must be....

  it seems to me that a better view of things rather than good vs evil would revolve around the RATIONAL norms of health and safety.

  we do not damn and seek to harm the retarded nor the rabid...though we may quarenteen them and even put them down for safety purposes, there is no malice involved, no revenge no hatred.
• 

  LittleToe

  Zen:I was with ya right up the point where you started euthanazing the retarded
• 

  zen nudist

  Zen:I was with ya right up the point where you started euthanazing the retarded

  do you read selectively as a matter of course or just to insult me? if you read carefully, I said no such thing
• 

  frankiespeakin

  OS,

  I have to ask the question that was already asked in anser to:

  Apply that thought to child molestation. Apply that thought to the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. Apply that thought to the Governing Body.

  Then tell me, is there any accountability for any action under such an unprovable belief system? I phrased the question that way because your premise is as unprovable as mine, but your premise excludes the possibility of anyone being accountable for any act.

  Accountablility to who? Man? A human tribunal? Certainly not a God in the sky?

  I'm against the idea of punishment for crimes or offenses.I'm for protecting people from the bad effects of someone who is dangerous or a fraud by putting them behind bar or impossing something to stop the unsociable conduct, I feel it is nessasarry,,, but punishment for revendge is a neurosis the human race must eventually grow out of.

  I think if we see clearly that everyone is a product of thier inviroment and genetics, that this slows down and eventually illiminates any need to get even, or kick some ass, or otherwise infict some torture or harm to such persons as you mentioned above.
• 

  Rod P

  frankiespeaking,

  By your logic, then, do you see that since this is a deterministic universe, and there is no right or wrong, good or bad, or no-one is culpable for one's conduct, then the idea of putting up structures (eg. prisons) to contain the socially unacceptable behaviors is merely an inevitable result of society's reaction to those behaviors. In fact, everything in the Universe is inevitably inevitable. Here on earth, our inevitable, pointless behaviors are redundantly and inevitably rewarded or punished.

  Our pointless, inevitable lives are living in a pointless, inevitable Universe. The act of communing with Nature is also quite pointless. We think we are enjoying this, but it's really just an illusion, because we do not comprehend reality as it is.

  So when do we wake up from this inevitable dream? Only when we inevitably die.

  Rod P.
• 

  LittleToe

  ~thinks, how best to reply to Zen~
  ~decides, fight fire with fire and go for the jugular, for a change~

  Hmmm, perhaps to insult you, coz that's what I like to go around doing, insulting people. Yeah, that's it - I'm trying to insult you...

  ...pillock!

  Name this quote: "The taking of offense rests in the bosom of the stupid ones"

  And now for something completely different - a man with a French Horn up his left nostril:

  we do not damn and seek to harm the retarded nor the rabid...though we may quarenteen them and even put them down for safety purposes, there is no malice involved, no revenge no hatred.

  Parrrp!
• 

  zen nudist

  ~thinks, how best to reply to Zen~
  ~decides, fight fire with fire and go for the jugular, for a change~

  Hmmm, perhaps to insult you, coz that's what I like to go around doing, insulting people. Yeah, that's it - I'm trying to insult you...

  ...pillock!

  Name this quote: "The taking of offense rests in the bosom of the stupid ones"

  And now for something completely different - a man with a French Horn up his left nostril:

  we do not damn and seek to harm the retarded nor the rabid...though we may quarenteen them and even put them down for safety purposes, there is no malice involved, no revenge no hatred.

  Parrrp!

  I just find it very interesting that the ONE thing you get out of all that is euthanizing the retarded, which never crossed my mind.
• 

  zen nudist

  Our pointless, inevitable lives are living in a pointless, inevitable Universe. The act of communing with Nature is also quite pointless. We think we are enjoying this, but it's really just an illusion, because we do not comprehend reality as it is.

  So when do we wake up from this inevitable dream? Only when we inevitably die.

  if you seek a point to your life you will not find one.... because that assumes you are looking at your life from some objective unbaised point of view and comparing your life to something else....what?

  there is no meaning OF life, there is only meaning found BY the living..... that comes from what you CARE about....and why do you CARE at all? because you are AWARE that your next move has consequences for YOUR contentment or happiness.... and the only freedom that matters is the one that allows us to do something about that concern.

  if everything were totally determined, I am not sure that our concerns would matter at all....as they seem to, what more freedom is required?