Do we have "Free Will" or is it an illusion?

by Rod P 134 Replies latest members private

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  ellderwho

  I believe "free will" is an illusion.
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  Narkissos

  What is an illusion?
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  trevor

  Illusion

  Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French, from Late Latin illusion-, illusio, from Latin, action of mocking, from illudere to mock at, from in- + ludere to play, mock -- more at LUDICROUS
  1 a obsolete : the action of deceiving b (1) : the state or fact of being intellectually deceived or misled : MISAPPREHENSION (2) : an instance of such deception
  2 a (1) : a misleading image presented to the vision (2) : something that deceives or misleads intellectually b (1) : perception of something objectively existing in such a way as to cause misinterpretation of its actual nature (2) : HALLUCINATION 1 (3) : a pattern capable of reversible perspective
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  LittleToe

  Trevor:

  The only sure evidence we can rely on is reality.

  Can we?
  

  EW:
  An illusion?

  How do you syncrete man's responsibility and God's sovereignty, or are you content to let it remain a dichotomy?
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  trevor

  LittleToe you asked me

  How do you syncrete man's responsibility and God's sovereignty, or are you content to let it remain a dichotomy?

  I do not see that your question relates directly to the matter of free will. It is only relevant if one believes in an all powerful sovereign God with an inflexible view of how things should be. As I do not see God as a being with sovereignty over me which I must submit to, my answer to your question must be - I do not see the need to syncrete man's responsibility and God's sovereignty.

  I see myself as a part of the manifestation of life on a physical plane. I see God as the intelligence and power that drives that process. I am a part of that process. True an insignificant part but nevertheless a part that life has chosen to dwell in for the moment. I do not believe in an all powerful being that is responsible for my well being or success or me being responsible to or for such a being.

  If such a being existed, all life could be guaranteed success with a predefined outcome, rather than being the adventure or journey of discovery that it is. Then what is success? Life would not be and adventure if the outcome was already assured. He God of the Bible had no free will at all but was ravaged by every emotion experienced by humans. He seemed to be at the mercy of Israel and His plans from Eden onward, sabotaged by wilful man.

  My comments on this thread relate specifically to whether I have freewill or responsibility over my actions during my life on earth. There are those who believe that there is a God lurking in outer space waiting to strike dead all those who refuse to jump through enough hoops. I do live with any such fear. Many will say I live in ignorance. In this case ignorance is bliss.
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  trevor

  Reading through the posts here has been interesting and some of the posts have woken up my brain cell. I was Intrigued by Terrys comments.

  It got me thinking that perhaps what Terry was doing was describing will-free which is a way of looking at freewill from a different angle. In order to experience the exercise of freewill we must first be in a position where we are free of the need to exercise will at all. In other words will-free.

  To be in such a position we would have to be totally beyond the influence of all external or internal factors. This is an impossibility for humans. Logically if we are not able to be will-free then we have, by default, lost the right to claim we have freewill.

  Terry If I have misunderstood, please correct me - you usually do!
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  zen nudist

  if your actions are caused, they are not free

  if you actions are uncaused, they are not willed

  is there a third alternative?

  it seems to me that freewill cannot exist...

  however what does seem to exist is the only freedom that seems to matter... our ability to act in our own behalf, for our own benefit.

  unlike a machine, we care about what happens to us and for us and because of that caring we act to change things to suit... in a completely clockwork universe, I am not sure that would be possible....
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  Rod P

  Trevor,

  That's why I said maybe we need to get "beyond space and time" in our consciousness where we would rise above "cause and effect", and there we might find true "Free Will". But I don't know that I've ever been there. There are those Gurus who claim they have and do. Maybe we just haven't learned how yet.

  Rod P.
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  LittleToe

  Trevor:
  I was addressing EW (Elderwho) with those comments, but nonetheless, thanks for your reply.

  I like your comment to Terry about "will-free", and that is how I would sum up the argument he presents, too.

  Rod:
  In Christian Mysticism that would be becoming at "one" with the will of God, whereby you declare "thy will be done", and you do so.

  Within the omnipresence of God, perhaps we are but a shard of existence. In that state, is it "us" (ego) or that which "is", that has the hand on the tiller?
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  Deputy Dog

  I have a question. Is there a difference between "will" and "want"? D Dog