by Rod P 134 Replies latest members private
LOL...but don't you see what that is?
I realize that I am nothing...I am one. It still adds up to what I am.
I would only truly be nothing if I didn't exist and had no will or perception or the ability to reach the realization of my nothingness/oneness. LOL
Lea
siegswife,
I do not have a problem you having the "I" that is you. And I accept that it is the "I" making the choices. But when it comes to defining just what that "I" is, then the whole thing seems to break down. All the physical evidence seems to be that this thing you identify as being yourself, the one that excercises the faculty of choice, does so as a direct result of all that this "I" that is you has somehow inherited.
So now, what is this "I" that is you? or me? or anyone else?
Is it just your physical body? Your personality inside your body, is that just your brain functioning with a lot of neural pathways along which electrical and chemical impulses travel? Your five physical senses- see, hear, touch, smell and taste- which take in stimulii from the outside world, are these simply translated from your sensory apparatus into brain impulses that go to the various part of the brain controlling memory, emotions, rationalizing, fight and flight responses, etc.? And sitting in our school classrooms for years on end being drilled with ideas and facts and vocabularies and mathematical concepts and scientific evidences, and all that- are these not simply the inputs that mould our thought processes, and rationalizations, our emotional responses, etc.?
Look at our lifestyles and our habits. We could drink and get drunk every day, or pop pills or take cocaine and develop addictions that also destroy our health, especially physically. On the other hand, we could eat healthy and in moderation, and exercise and do all the things that enhance that which is "You". What I'm getting at here is the fact that even our state of health affects our choices; even our abilities to make certain choices when the physical health to do so just isn't there.
In other words, is this all there is that is "You"? This purely physical entity, with quite reasonable and causal explanations for why "You" choose what, where, when, why and with whom "You" do? (You choose what you choose because you are what "You" are.). There is simply no "free will" in this. You are no better than a robot, no matter how complicated is your "wiring". You just can't help it.
Now suppose this physical body is not all there is that comprises "You". Suppose there is a certain something (call "it" what you will- a "spark" maybe). And this "spark" that lives inside your body actually has an "awareness" that goes beyond the physical body and all of its reactions, including your personality.) Maybe this "spark" is just quietly sitting there, observing and absorbing everything that is going on with the physical body that is "You". Then, at certain points along the way, this "Physical You" gets tempted to do something really bad or dangerous or unhealthy, or instinctively reacts in the wrong way such that your physical life is in danger. What if this "spark" that is a more permanent and real part of "You" intercedes, and causes you to choose the "right" or "better" choice in a given situation?
Or at a time of some crossroads when your life could be altered for the better or worse by choosing to go down "this road" rather than the "other one". Let us say that this "spark", this essence beyond the mere physical, may well be the difference between making a choice by "free will" and the physical self "choosing" based on nature and inheritance and pre-conditioning. Because, you see, it cannot be said that this "Spark" is subject to all of the things that our physical selves are that imprison us, and compel us to make the choices that we do. It is this "Spark", whatever it is, that is "free" and truly "responsible" and understands there are consequences for the choices we make, knowing full well that we do not "have to" choose the way we do in the "physical".
And so, what if we are more, and this life is not all there is, and something much bigger is going on with our lives than we are willing to admit, or are aware of? If the totality of our "being" goes beyond the physical, and this life is but a small chapter in eternity, then I can believe in a moral universe, and "free will", and right and wrong, and responsibility for our actions, and reward and punishment.
So tell me I'm wrong here!
Rod P.
Siegswife
What I am referring to has to be experienced to be understood. Such a state of mind takes time to achieve though it can be experienced instantly for a short time in some circumstances.
Why not take up meditation? It can do a lot of good physically and mentally and expand our ability to go beyond the present confines of what we perceive to be us.
I am telling you all, that we HAVE TO HAVE FREE WILL, or all is pointless and meaningless, and without choice or responsibility, or right or wrong or morality, and reward and punishment is redundant. No "free will" is insanity! IMHO It's just that I am having one heck of a time finding out How or at what level we do, in fact, have "free will".Rod P.
I completely disagree
nothing I mentioned requires free will...and just because things are determined does not mean that what we do and why we do it is pointless to ourselves...because manifestly that is where it all matters. sure I only act because I get dis-satisfied, dis-contented or dis-eased... and I have no control over these states which are a reaction to all that I am and all that has happened to me and around me, but what is the alternative? I am a collection of many desires, goals and wants...and which ever is most compelling at any given moment is the one I do persue...and this is all DETERMINED... what is the other option? if there were no cause to my actions, that would not be will, that would be random and willess...no? the concept of freewill meaning that my will is free of your will is valid, but irrelevant...my will is not free of who I am and all that has made me that way....
I do not find the universe requiring complete and absolute determinism...but one thing that seem certain to me is that I cannot change a single moment of the past...which ended 10-23seconds ago....which brought me to the very present...which I wont even know for about .3 seconds.... and since I cannot change any moment that brought me here, I must be exactly where I am, no other place possible...ever.... so I am always exactly where I must be....where is the freedom in that? you may talk about the decisions I made...but those decisions were made IN time, not outside it and they all TOOK time and that means that no decision was ever other than it HAD to be when it arrived, since all the steps that lead to it were in the past at that particular moment....no different from the step by step processing of any computer, even a parallel neural net processing connection machine.
zen nudist,
So please tell me what part of the universe operates outside of or beyond complete and absolute determinism?
Rod P.
Seriously, I agree completely. A world without free will, a human existence without the capacity to make deliberate choice contrary to inclination and influence, is ultimately the epitomy of a futile existence.
you exist, that is a fact, whether or not it is futile is a judgement based on an evaluation of your life from outside itself, after it is over...and tell me what point is there in that?
zen nudist,So please tell me what part of the universe operates outside of or beyond complete and absolute determinism?
Rod P.
determinism is by no means a certainty.... quantum physicists and relativiity physicists have been struggling with this one for a good minute it is quite possible that the core of reality is made up of vibrating entities which are not determined at all, but purely random, and only in the trillions do they take on the APPEARANCE of determinism as a statistical ILLUSION. there definitely elements of this realm which are unpredictible and unknowable in totality.... perhaps they are truely determined as M-theory suggests... since that happens in 11 dimensions we may never be able to verify one way or the other.
Trevor, I know that a message board isn't an ideal way of getting a good sense of a person and what they're trying to say, so I hope you don't the following sentence wrong. I don't know why you presume that I don't know what you're talking about or haven't experienced my own periods of enlightenment. I'm sure that I haven't experienced exactly what you have seeing that we are two different beings with our own base of perception, but I've been to a place where I realized my own nothingness. I lived like that for several years as a result of choices and circumstances and even addictions.
I've been to the place of puniness and disconnection. Feeling self loathing, disgust and rejection. Aloneness and fragmentation. The place of no real sense of self or purpose. The realization that I'm of no account in this world. The result was, as you say the awareness that the opposite was also true. The oneness and connectedness which led to self love, forgiveness and acceptance. Completeness in being of no account.
You see, I accepted that I am what I am and I do what I do because I am what I am - and that was the point of liberation. The point where I became able to experience "free will". I have problems and issues and I don't and won't always make the right choices because, as I see it, some of my problems are of a mental health nature. That doesn't mean that I don't have free choice. It means that it can be a challenge to make the best one not that I'm incapable of making that choice.
I've realized that true freedom comes with self acceptance. See, even though I'm still a person that doesn't really matter in the scheme of things...just another faulty cog in the wheel...that knowledge doesn't make me sad or disillusioned. It doesn't make me dissatisfied with my life. Because of that realization I've finally been able to be "me" and get rid of most of the baggage. It resulted in my becoming "centered" which in turn led to being able to cultivate a wonderful relationship with my man, a stronger bond with my children and gain some good and true friends over the last 10 years or so.
Being and accepting that you are bound to yourself and all that you are (or are not) doesn't limit your freedom - it increases your awareness of its abundance.
Lea
Thanks for sharing your thoughts and emotions. It seems you have had a difficult life and found a measure of happiness by learning to accept yourself. No doubt your experiences have helped you to be self aware and able to understand other people and their needs.
I wish you all the best.
Trevor
Rod:
Do you view yourself as a "soul/body", a body with a soul, or a soul with a body?
