Do we have "Free Will" or is it an illusion?

by Rod P 134 Replies latest members private

• 

  Euphemism

  I could be wrong... but I think what bugs a lot of people about being 'programmed' is the idea of a programmer. It implies that we're somehow subject to external control. That's not what determinism means.

  The locus of control is still in our brains. Beyond a very shallow level, no one can predict what any given external stimulus will do to our brains. Even if someone could create an enormous computer that could replicate every physical process in our brain, they couldn't actually predict our brainstate without reading our entire brain (which would almost certainly destroy it) or else knowing its exact initial state due to genetics, and every sensory stimulus--down to the atom--that we ever encountered. That is simply impossible.

  So whether our brain works purely by physical processes, or by some mysterious metaphysical process, the brain--the human mind--is still the seat of autonomy, a system of complexity far beyond external control.

  Anyway, I don't mean to be an apologist. I just think that people's natural sense of their own autonomy is often the biggest emotional reason for defending free will, but there actually is no contradiction between mental autonomy and physical determinism.
• 

  bebu

  I heard that a Reform (Calvinist) theologian once spoke to a group of Arminian students, and said that they way he saw it, it all depends upon where you are in time.

  At each moment, you are exercising free will as you look ahead to the future. Every choice you make is yours. And you are responsible.

  As a Christian, you may look backward and discover that God's hand was everywhere, that you were chosen for some unfathomable reason--and nothing to do what your own 'goodness'. It is a humbling thing. The Arminian students he spoke to thought that was acceptable.

  One interesting thing that I once read out of Calvin (can't remember the book, but I think it was a commentary on Ephesians) was that precisely because one does NOT know who God has elected, it is wrong to make assumptions based on appearances. The hardest-hearted person could actually be elect, he said, so Christians could always feel great hope in the face of circumstances.

  I have attended Presbyterian and Arminian churches; I never heard anyone rail against the other (but I did hear some good-natured joking).

  bebu
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  seattleniceguy

  Sorry for popping in without actually reading the thread, but I just thought I'd tip my hat to Euphemism, who first convinced me that there is no such thing as free will. I tried to resist the argument, but it was not really in my hands anyway, so in the end I accepted it. :-)

  SNG
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  Rod P

  Euphemism,

  Well, whether it be "mental autonomy" or "physical determinism" or both, doesn't this beg the question "How then, is there any real purpose and meaning to our lives?" Are out brains just a bunch of neurons firing, simply creating the impression of some kind of reality? Or is there something more?

  If there is no God, and this Universe is all there is (following the "big bang"), and our existence is all the result of random chance probability, then I can see "physical determinism"for our lot in life. I would also see "mental autonomy" as a by-product or extension of physical determinism. But this also means that there is no real point or purpose to existence, so that our lives are ultimately meaningless. Appreciating art or a sunset is simply irrelevant, in the final analysis. We would have experiences an inevitable momentary pleasure, being in awe of nature or some creative artistic endeavor by another predetermined intellect. I would call this the "Mechanical Universe".

  If, on the other hand, there is a God who created this Universe, and we are His creation, imbued with a "free will", then by implication, responsibility and judgment, morality, right and wrong, etc. must prevail. Then, and only then, can there be real purpose and meaning. That's why I see the question of "free will" as inseparably connected to these other issues, and furthermore, this is incredibly important!

  Bebu,

  I don't have a problem of not judging a person based on appearances (i.e. Elect vs. Condemned), and it is good advice not to pre-judge someone on this. And I do agree that hindsight does give a different perspective from first impressions. But the Calvinist viewpoint doesn't prove that we do not have "free will". I know, the argument goes something like this: Because God is Omniscient (all-knowing) then He knows the past, the present and the future. If He didn't, He ceases to be God. Therefore God knows what we are and how we will choose in every situation. And there is nothing we can do for God, to earn our eternal reward. God doesn't need anything from us. So God's foreknowledge of our choices does not imply that we were forced to choose a certain way. It's just that he could see farther than the rest of us.

  Now, on the other part of the equation, our lives are supposed to be "predestined". In other words, because of our individual Natures, we will choose the way we do, (which God knows in advance). So while we may have the "freedom to choose" there is a kind of predetermined fate here, because of the nature we possess. And God determines whether we be of the Elect, or whether we should be Condemned. Sorry, I just don't buy into that.

  Rod P.
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  Bas

  but there actually is no contradiction between mental autonomy and physical determinism.

  Euphemism, you're spot on, however these two concepts seem to be impossible to reconcile by the great majority of people. It takes alot of time and energy processing these concepts and most people refuse to accept it as it conflicts with their world view. Once you're there though, I found it rocksolid ground to base your worldview on. I sortof started "preaching" determinism on highschool when I was about 17, 18 and really nobody was willing to accept it, sparking heavy discussion. Some would even say things like "but if everything was prefixed, you might as well go lie down in the gutter, cuz everything will happen anyway", I think that's really funny looking back on it now.... and really there have been plenty of great filosophers who just couldn't accept determinism because of emotions wouldn't let them...anyway, I think the WTS demonizes determinism, basically saying God is making this all up as we go

  Bas
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  Abaddon

  As the great sge said;

  "Lighten the fuck up, you're a monkey, get over it".
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  Lois

  Do We Really Have "Free Will?" ... Do We Really Have "Free Will?" Most Christians - and non ... that human beings have "free will." They reason that if we don't have free will then we must embrace ... www.goodnewsaboutgod.com/studies/ freewill2.htm - 18k - Cached - More from this site Here is some interesting insight on the subject.
• 

  Terry

  I promise to make this a short post.

  It is very tiring to plunge into a deep subject with thick paragraphs growling at you!

  FREE WILL

  "FREE" from what?

  Free Will is a will free from.....?

  Somebody answer me that.

  Life isn't necessary. Yet, we have it.

  To MAINTAIN life there is necessity.

  We are actually free NOT to maintain it.

  As Sartre says, "By not ending life; we choose it."

  Is that a free choice?

  Our decisions (in the face of obstacles) is what quality of life we have. Yet, even with optimum knowledge and optimum decisions there is always the chance happening that defeats us.

  Our ability to tackle the problem of free will is equal to our ability to define "free".

  Terry
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  trevor

  Rod P

  This is the old debate about determinism.

  Are we acting freely or are we programmed? Well, yes we are all programmed but to what degree? How will we ever know to what degree because we cannot experience an alternative to what we are? If we change and see life differently how can we be sure we had any choice in the circumstances that conspired to change us? Perhaps we think that we chose to change but how can we be sure? I don?t think anyone has ever come to a conclusion that all agree on because each new question leads to three more.

  Terry - Some good points . That is quite a fresh approach to a never ending subject.
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  bebu

  Sorry, I just don't buy into that.

  That's alright. I'm not saying I actually do, either. I think, if predestination is true, it is true in a dimension we really do not/cannot grasp in reason alone, and which cannot cancel free will. Sorry if that sounds like a cop-out. I feel, at nearly every moment, the weight of free will, and not predestination.

  bebu