Do we have "Free Will" or is it an illusion?

by Rod P 134 Replies latest members private

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  frankiespeakin

  I just want to say even if I disagree or agree with what anybody post, I have enjoyed reading the post on this thread.
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  siegswife

  I'm free to chose to be me and all that involves for good or bad.

  I can't be something else and no matter what I chose I will still be me.

  These two statement seem to me to be contradictory.

  Yea, I didn't express the first thought clearly.

  What I see in myself is that I always have a choice to be one way or another. For example, when I was younger I thought nothing of telling "white lies" to cover my ass - like telling my employer that I didn't come to work and didn't call off because of a family emergency - when the reality was that I was sick from being hung over and wasn't awake in time to call off. Now, I go to work unless I really have a reason and last summer when I had one beer too many at a concert I attended I called them and told them I was hung over from having too many beers the day before. My boss laughed and said to another manager that I had to be lying because nobody calls off with an excuse like that. LOL

  Both of those choices are expressions of me but I chose to try to be the person who doesn't lie (believe me I've had days recently when I've gone through the mental exercise of thinking up an excuse to stay home from work because it sucks). I'm not content to be a person who can lie without missing a beat and feel like being honest is being truer to my self. Of course I recognize that I'm good at coming up with some believable lies so I wouldn't be wrong to think of myself as a liar too.

  Rod seems to believe that being bound by your nature means that you don't have free will. What I don't understand about that way of looking at it is I don't see any alternative to being bound by my nature. If I wasn't than I wouldn't be because I wouldn't have anything that defines "me". That would be a problem for me...knowing that I don't possess an identity that is uniquely my own that affects my choices.

  I hope that's clearer.

  Lea
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  OldSoul

  trevor: I did not say that I had accepted that we cannot be other than who we are but that to do so was to accept that we do not have free will to choose be other than what we are.

  Trevor,

  I apologize for miscommunication. I understood that you were not decided on the point. But that portion of your statement called to mind something that I had not seen addressed so far in this thread. I was partly responding to you, from the standpoint of giving what, in my opinion, is cause for tilting the balance toward belief in free will.

  Mostly I was responding to the arguments of those who are certain there is no such thing as free will. The arguments against free will are incapable of disproving free will without an appeal to absolutes, and must first confine free will by some means to an absolute before they can disintegrate it. If free will is a thing, it is only a thing in the sense that a concept is a thing. You could as easily disprove the existence of temperature, up, or zero. These realities are only real in relation to other concepts. They cannot be proven as absolutes.

  Respectfully,
  OldSoul
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  OldSoul

  without the myth of freewill... we would no longer damn and blame anyone for being who and what they are or were....
  
  we would accept that they were exactly what they had to be at that given moment....
  
  but much like rabid dogs, this does not mean that we would not protect ourselves from them should they prove to be dangerous
  
  but we would not what if and if only over their actions or our own...we would accept them, try to understand them, and prepare for our next moves

  We would be accountable to no one, not even ourselves.

  Anarchy, domination, manipulation, murder, gratification, theft, rape, molestation of children, assault, and personal revenge would be accepted. Are you really ready to recommend that? Rule of force, selfishness, and ruthlessness?

  I am not. Without a belief in free will, the ability to will oneself to a specific course of action, anyone would be free to act on whatever momentary impulse they felt. How many children would survive childhood? It would possibly be good for the planet, the human race would exterminate itself in a few generations.

  Respectfully,
  OldSoul
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  frankiespeakin

  OS,

  Anarchy, domination, manipulation, murder, gratification, theft, rape, molestation of children, assault, and personal revenge would be accepted. Are you really ready to recommend that? Rule of force, selfishness, and ruthlessness?

  Have you ever concidered that if free will really existed for the human race these things would be accepted and a great paradox would exist?
• 

  siegswife

  Have you ever concidered that if free will really existed for the human race these things would be accepted and a great paradox would exist?

  While pondering this subject (the existence of antisocial and sociapathic people and society's rejection of them) I came to the conclusion that they aren't accepted because they infringe on the ability of other people to enjoy a life free from predators that would harm them.

  I don't think the fact that they aren't accepted means free will doesn't exist. It's just that the free will of the majority prefers life without people who would harm them. "It's either you or me" kind of thing. I'll chose my survival over someone who wants to hurt me every time. Don't you?

  Lea
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  OldSoul

  frankiespeakin: Have you ever concidered that if free will really existed for the human race these things would be accepted and a great paradox would exist?

  No. I have never considered that. I am trying to consider it now. I'll get back to you after I have thought about it some, okay?
• 

  trevor

  Siegswife

  Thanks for your comments. I do understand what you are saying and it is good that you are happy with the way you are. You find security in having boundaries that define you as a unique person. You say that you don't see any alternative to being bound by your nature but feel you have free will within those bounds.

  I agree that we do have a degree of free will within the range of our nature. The difficulty would be for someone who was not happy with who they were and wanted to explore making major changes that did not come naturally in order to be accepted by the society they are born into or just to be happy.

  If you were to find that you nature drove you do things that were unacceptable to you or others then you would have to explore to what degree the natural boundaries can be altered. It is at this point that the question of free will comes in. To me it is still a question.

  OldSoul

  I appreciate your comments too and as you point out I am undecided on the matter. As I said before - Despite the arguments I have put forward, I still secretly believe that we do have a degree of free will.

  As Frankiespeakin said it is enjoyable to exchange ideas and it not necessary to agree with everybody.
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  OldSoul

  frankiespeakin,

  Do you still think free will means unfettered freedom? If so, I see your point. Otherwise, I am at a complete loss.

  Free will means each individual is free to exercise volition. It doesn't mean each individual is "free" to do whatever they want, it means they are free to choose a course. Many here seem to be focused on the "free" portion of the concept, when that is simply an adjectival qualifier for the "will" verb/noun.

  It can better be seen by laying out the construct in more words: (free) Not controlled by obligation or the will of another to use (will) mental faculty by which one deliberately chooses or decides upon a course of action. Absence of free will would be freedom from conscious restraint, where each individual would act out their momentary impulses not guided by deliberate choice but guided by instinct, genetics, or pressures from others.

  No one said a particular exercise of free will would be without consequence. Free will is an individual concept, but it is also a societal concept. BTW, frankiespeakin, we agree completely on incarceration and/or death being viewed not as a penalty or punishment but as a dispassionate consequence of behaviors that society chooses not to tolerate. In making such a dispassionate choice, society would be exercising free will.

  Respectfully,
  OldSoul
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  siegswife

  I enjoy these exchanges too.

  The difficulty would be for someone who was not happy with who they were and wanted to explore making major changes that did not come naturally in order to be accepted by the society they are born into or just to be happy.

  The problem I have with that view is that it seems as if there is something there that isn't something from within. If I desire to change, it's my desire. If it's within me to desire change it follows that it's within me to make the change. If I want to change that is my natural inclination which isn't really change at all. It's chosing to explore and live according to another facet of my identity.

  Another example here. I've always been pretty shy and I still am in alot of ways, but as I got older I desired to express myself more assertively. I got a part-time job working for a friend selling balloons and novelties at parades. At first I was pretty bad at it (probably making ok money because of being a female) but as I "put on" the persona of a novelty vendor, I got better at making small talk with strangers and eventually got really good at putting on the show and making more money. That's what it really came down to...making myself more noticable and attractive than the other vendors. (Lot's of competition)

  The novelty vendor part of me is working at my current job, again dealing with the public, and my customers really like me. They like me even though I'm not as outgoing in my private life. When I'm with friends and family I'm more content to let them take center stage. Am I being phony at work? I don't think so because it comes naturally now and that is who I am when I'm at work.

  I guess what I'm not understanding is the way it seems as if some people think that free will has to exist outside of our own individuality. How can you have free will if there is no "you"? I can't have free will without me.

  I'm inclined to think ideas like that are partially a result of the JW experience (or fundamentalist type religious thinking) that encourages us to reject our "selves" to be something more and better than what we "are".

  Lea