Do we have "Free Will" or is it an illusion?

by Rod P 134 Replies latest members private

  • Rod P
    Rod P

    Terry,

    To me, the question is NOT "Free from.....?" but "Free to.....?" "Free to choose, for which I, and I alone, am responsible.

    I can't say "Free from 'God's will' " because He probably is not forcing His will on me to begin with, and which also pre-supposes that there is a God.

    I can't say "Free from pre-conditioning", because I don't know to what extent, if any, I am pre-conditioned.

    I can't say "Free from genetic inheritance" because the evidence is that I have inherited an awful lot of genetic characteristics from my parents thru DNA.

    I can't say "Free from social conditioning" because the evidence is that we are all socially conditioned. (eg. learned behaviors)

    So Terry, IMHO, "Freedom from" is the wrong question to consider.

    What if life IS necessary, and that's why we have it?

    And, of course, it's necessary to maintain life, since we do have it.

    I agree with Sartre that by not ending life, we choose it. But it is also true, that by living life, we choose it.

    If "free will" is a fact at some level, then we are "free to" not end life, or to maintain it. In other words, we are Free To Choose.

    If the qualityof life we have is based on our decisions (in the face of obstacles), then perhaps the "free will" we exercised in making those decisions is what gives us the quality of life we have.

    The ability to tackle the problem of "Pre-Determinism" is equal to our pre-determined ability to define "pre-determinism". In other words, perhaps these kinds of questions are redundant to the question of "free will".

    Trevor,

    I agree with you, that every new question seems to raise three more. It's a bit like trying to pick oneself up by one's own bootstraps. The pre-conditioned being trying to contemplate his own pre-conditioning.

    Perhaps the answer is, "There ain't no answer!" (Unless the God of the Universe came down and told us that we really DO have Free Will.) LOL, because that's all we can do!

  • Terry
    Terry

    Daniel Dennett wrote a book: FREEDOM EVOLVES discussing this subject at some length and depth.

    Here is one review:

    http://www.kenanmalik.com/reviews/dennett_freedom.html

    Key point:

    The self is not the entity that governs brain processes, but is the outcome of those processes.

    Echoing the neurologist Daniel Wegner, Dennett suggests that:

    'People become what they think they are, or what they find others think they are.'

    Free will, in other words, is not the capacity to do something but the capacity to know that something is being done in your name.

  • Terry
    Terry
    Terry,

    To me, the question is NOT "Free from.....?" but "Free to.....?" "Free to choose, for which I, and I alone, am responsible.

    How do you escape the inescapable?

    When you CHOOSE you are not free FROM not choosing. The necessity of choice is what you are not free from.

    Were you in a position neutral to choice you would indeed be FREE.

    But, life creates necessity by nature of constant maintenance. That imposes choice after choice after choice which we have no FREEDOM from.

    T.

  • larc
    larc

    I wrote about this earlier and addressed it to a fellow named Dun. He is an interesting fellow. He is a JW who was getting his master's degree in philosophy. Our dialogue is under the subject of Free Will versus Determinism. I started out by saying that as a scientist I believe in determinism. As a person, I feel like I have free will, so the issue is a puzzle to me.

    I thought the comments here were very well presented on both sides of the issue.

  • drwtsn32
    drwtsn32

    I suppose we do not truly have free will. If we were to repeatedly replay an specific moment in time where we make a decision, would the choice ever change? I suppose not. All of the factors that go into making that decision will be the same every time that moment is replayed. There's no reason that the choice we make would ever change. Unless... hmmm.. maybe quantum mechanics adds some true randomness and unpredictability to the equation. ;)

    I don't see this as a big deal though. The illusion of free will is still there, so nothing has really changed. Damn you SNG for spreading Euphemism's ideas on to me! :P

  • bebu
    bebu
    I suppose we do not truly have free will. If we were to repeatedly replay an specific moment in time where we make a decision, would the choice ever change? I suppose not.

    I dunno. Seems like I do a lot of editing of posts... wishing I had done it right the first time...

    bebu

  • Rod P
    Rod P

    Terry,

    The inescapable, as you put it, is the very question you have set up that I feel is meaningless and paradoxical. In other words, it is simply a mind game.

    As I understand what you are trying to say, because I must inevitably choose, therefore I am not free. And if I could get beyond, or transcend Choice, I would then be free, but only then. I suppose we could say God is in the same position, since He could Create or Not Create. But in His choosing to Create, He was Not Free. In a way, the ultimate absurdity!

    Let us say, for a moment, that I am faced with a choice, to do something, or not to do something, say like "Go to the moon and back." If I am merely a physical, biological being, and that is all there is, then I would concede that a pretty good case could be made that my choice would probably be done from a pre-disposition to choose one way or the other.

    But what if there is more to me than that? For example, what if I had lived in some past life, and the essence that is me survived and is now living in my present physical body? This then, sets up an entirely different set of parameters respecting choice than what your limited, materialistic assumptions do in terms of the manner is which "I" do my choosing. Which is why I have to ask "How is it that the necessity of choosing negates any and all freedom of choice?

    If I am, of necessity, faced with the inevitability of choice, what has that got to do with the What, Why, Where, When and How of choosing? As a matter of fact, I may just discard all of the rational criteria of choosing, flip a coin, and dive right in to the random decision.

    Dennett, the materilist, concedes that Determinism and Freedom coexist. He also went further by suggesting that "Agency is not merely a biological possession, but is also more than that, because of our capacity to transcend it." He explains that through history, man learned to control nature and to regulate its input upon our lives, and this is also part of our Agency. As a result, he sees this as a Political issue, not a Scientific one.

    I would venture further by suggesting another possibility. What if, for the sake of argument, we possess a "Spirit" inside our biological entity that transcends even biology and history/politics. And what if THAT is what governs Agency/Choice, rather than the biological entity with its brain functions? And with the death of the body, the Spirit leaves the body, with its Agency intact, going elsewhere (Heaven, Hell, Spirit World, Purgatory, Astral Plane, Reincarnation, etc.)?

    While the statement that "the self is not the entity that governs brain processes, but is the outcome of these processes" is a neat twist, I fail to see how it necessarily follows that:

    "Free will is not the capacity to do something, but rather to know that something is being done in your name." For if there is more to this material universe than what we can see, hear, feel, smell and touch, then perhaps there is a certain essence within our biological being that is the true centre of our Being, from which we exercise our Agency. In that case, our physical brain activity is merely reflecting an awareness of what is being done in our name, but the act of Will from our true essence is still the Agency of choice.

    Finally, it disturbs me that all you materialists and scientists refuse to accept the possibility of anything beyond your physically observable universe through the medium of your puny, limited instruments of technology. After all, it was not that long ago that scientists pronounced that they had discovered all of the laws of the universe, and the rest of scientific discovery and progress would be devoted to finding the relationships of these laws in juxtaposition with one another.....And then along came Eistein's General and Special Theories of Relativity, and Particle Physics. The rest, as they say, is history.

    And for the record, I am well aware that the subject of the "Soul" or "Spirit" is a whole other subject, which I am quite willing and prepared to enter into on another thread. But then, Terry, you already have a pretty good idea where I would be heading with that one.

    Rod P.

    p.s. You do have some good ideas, but I'm still gonna debate 'em. If I have to accept Determinism, it ain't gonna be without a good fight!

  • Country Girl
    Country Girl

    Of course we don't have freel will. There will always be someone having a say over what we do. The thing we have to think about is HOW FAR will we let it go? We will only accept the choices that we'll accept. Otherwise, we'll stop them.

    CG

  • darkuncle29
    darkuncle29

    Nothing is Absolute.

  • Euphemism
    Euphemism
    Rod P wrote:

    If, on the other hand, there is a God who created this Universe, and we are His creation, imbued with a "free will", then by implication, responsibility and judgment, morality, right and wrong, etc. must prevail. Then, and only then, can there be real purpose and meaning.

    Once again, I'd disagree. Why is your life any more meaningful just because you're under the control of some puppetmaster you choose to call God? Even if you do have free will, you're making the assumption that it's somehow more meaningful to choose to submit to the will of this external being. Which makes me ask, what exactly do you mean by 'meaningful', anyway?

    I hope you don't feel ganged-up-on in this thread; as far as I'm concerned, if you want to believe in a deity, metaphysics, or whatever else, more power to you.

    But it bugs me when people say that a life is meaningless without God, or without free will, or without other undefinable concepts. If God is what gives your life meaning, fine. But can you actually articulate any real difference between the feeling you get from your God-concept, and the transcendent feeling that I as an atheist get from contemplating nature? IMHO, they're both internal, subjective experiences. If there is any meaning in life, we have to find it within ourselves.

    But that's just my opinion.

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