a friend in need (page 43)

OldSoul

Not trying to censor you, RescueMe, because your reactions are perfectly normal. I just want to point out again, for the benefit of lurkers, that you are not now, and never have been, one of Jehovah's Witnesses.

RescueMe

Please, you have got to have better than that...seriously tell me you can come up with something other than this crap? LOL, go to your elders and see what they can give you to use!

RescueMe

Old Soul, you are right I am not a JW and the more I learn the more I am thankful for that.

I apologise to everyone here for my poor behavior. I've allowed myself to be baited by a child and it reflects poorly on me.

shadow

shadow,
It is readily apparent that you are a sincere student, although also an elder. I really feel you do not find me inferior to you, and in my experience that in itself is a rarity among elders. Thank you for providing considered responses. I will respond in kind.
Immediately Moses listened to the voice of his father-in-law and did all that he had said.
This was not a divinely mandated arrangement. The suggestion was made by a non-Israelite who quite possibly worshipped other gods. Still this seems to have been acceptable in Jehovah's eyes.

True. I consider this account as related to be evidence that as long as Moses' actions did not conflict with Jehovah's will he was allowed to make reasonable provisions for meeting the needs of the people. However, there is ample evidence of which I am sure you are aware, that Moses did not prefigure a Faithful and Discreet Slave directed by a Governing Body. If Moses prefigured anyone, he prefigured Jesus, even according to the explanation given by the Governing Body. That being the case, are you suggesting that this gross example of manipulative human direction is at the behest of Jesus?
We all know of David's past, yet here he is instituting some organizational structure without instructions to do so.

True. David was the King over Israel. He was responsible for the early termination of many Israelites once before for numbering the people to determine military strength. (1 Chronicles 21:1) So obviously he was not allowed to do whatever he wanted. There were limits. And again, if David prefigures anyone, he prefigures Jesus (Acts 2).

I'm not talking about prefiguring anyone or anything. The whole point is that Jehovah has given humans some latitude in creating institutions to serve him. I provided examples of this in scripture.

Jesus publicly condemned these men. He and his disciples did not obey them. So why did he make the curious statement "Therefore all the things they tell YOU, do and observe"? Just my personal opinion, but Jesus clearly knew when the leaders were wrong, others probably did not know. Still, Jesus continued to teach in the synagogues and worship at the temple. It seems we have a similar situation now.

I think this is a bit disingenuous of you, although not likely intentional. I will not respond as though you were trying to stretch a point too far. It is clear from the context (i.e. the rest of the 23rd chapter) that he was making people aware. He would have been labeled an apostate by the current organization for the things he said in the 23rd chapter. Are you agreeing that the Faithful and Discreet Slave and/or the Governing Body are modern day Pharisees? I would readily accept that, if so. Otherwise, why the comparison?

SH: Many times they are, yes.

When I read the next two paragraphs of Matthew 23, it becomes crystal clear to me that Jesus was speaking sardonically in verse 3:
Matthew 23:13-15 13 "Woe to YOU, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because YOU shut up the kingdom of the heavens before men; for YOU yourselves do not go in, neither do YOU permit those on their way in to go in. 14 ?

15 "Woe to YOU, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because YOU traverse sea and dry land to make one proselyte, and when he becomes one YOU make him a subject for Ge·hen´na twice as much so as yourselves.

If we are to take verse 3 as instructions for the people, as you suggest, then Jesus encouraged his listeners to make themselves ... unfit for the kingdom of the heavens. If we are to take verse 3 as instructions, then Jesus encouraged his listeners to make themselves ... subject to Gehenna twice as much as the Pharisees. Is that really how you believe verse 3 should be understood?
Jesus taught in the synagogues and worshipped at the temple to do exactly what Paul said he did: fulfill the law. He did not do as he "instructed" in verse 3. He did not do according to all that the Pharisees said. Therefore, either the interpretation of verse 3 is wrong or Jesus was also a hypocrite.

No, I would not say that obedience to the Pharisees had no limit. However, there are some traditions not mandated that Jesus did go along with. One is the Festival of Lots. Another is the use of wine at the passover. Other comparable scriptural situations could be:
(Matthew 5:38-42) 38 "YOU heard that it was said, ?Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.? 39 However, I say to YOU: Do not resist him that is wicked; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other also to him. 40 And if a person wants to go to court with you and get possession of your inner garment, let your outer garment also go to him; 41 and if someone under authority impresses you into service for a mile, go with him two miles. 42 Give to the one asking you, and do not turn away from one that wants to borrow from you [without interest]. No mandate for five meetings a week, but does that mean it's wrong? As far as the synagogues, Jesus did not have to preach there. He could have confined himself to the temple. So apparently these institutions of human invention were OK.

Jesus was a Jew, born under the Jewish system of things and bound by its law. He freed us from law written on stone tablets and offered us a law inscribed in hearts. In our day, Pharisees try to brace up a wall around the Law of Christ. In our day, Pharisees try to make us subject again to man's law - subverting the faith of many. (Acts 15:22-29) In our day, Pharisees want us to be figuratively "circumcised in the flesh." (Galatians 5:1-12). I agree with your comparison. I reject, as Jesus rejected, the teachings of Pharisees. To be acceptable to Jehovah, the Pharisees had to change their minds. (Acts 15)

Were the Israelites God's people in spite of the failings and corruption of many of their leaders?

Were you unable to find Scriptural proofs in favor of the doctrinal answers I asked about?

I don't believe that there is any definitive scriptural evidence to support the FDS doctrine of JW's. However I believe it is permissible for humans to create an authority structure that will be approved and used by Jehovah. A previous post:

OS:I am looking for scriptural proofs that
1) the Faithful and Discreet Slave is a class of people,

SH: As far as the express term having that meaning, not sure, but don't consider it to be a decisive factor.

OS: (2) that the holy spirit directs organizations in addition to individuals,

SH: Since an 'organization' does not possess consciousness, it seems evident that only individuals could be directed. An organization may have a distinctive culture or agree to be bound by certain covenants, but the source will always be individuals.

OS: (3) that the Faithful and Discreet Slave is responsible for revealing "new light" (as opposed to "food at the proper time") to anyone, and finally

SH: Not sure what you are getting at here.

OS: (4) that Jehovah deals with individual other sheep differently than the little flock.

The reason it is so vital, in my opinion, is because the baptismal questions changed. I will send you a Word document, that I wrote by way of explanation, regarding that change. I'll add that part to this post:
. . . .
NOTICE: There is no need to be a student of the Bible at all. The Bible is not mentioned, neither is the holy spirit, or its operation on individuals. You merely need to confess your repentant state and identify yourself as one of Jehovah's Witnesses and associate with an earthly organization that claims to be spirit-directed (the identical claim made by the Catholic Church). With two alterations, those are almost the same questions asked before baptism in just about every "Christian" Church in the U.S., if you replace "Jehovah" with "God" or "The Lord" in the first question and replace "Jehovah's Witnesses" with the name of the Church in question in the second.

I like the old questions better.

I have copied below my research on the idea of the GB. Maybe this will give a clearer picture of what I am talking about. I copied it in from Word and hope it retains the formatting, otherwise it will be very hard to read.

Here are some references about the group usually referred to as the 1st century governing body. My comments are in black.

EVIDENCE FROM ACTS

Barnabas has to convince apostles about Paul. Jesus did not see fit to inform them.

(Acts

Brothers from Jerusalem were the source of the problem about the circumcision issue.

(Acts 15:1-26) 15 And certain men came down from Ju?de´a and began to teach the brothers: ?Unless YOU get circumcised according to the custom of Moses, YOU cannot be saved.? 2 But when there had occurred no little dissension and disputing by Paul and Bar´na?bas with them, they arranged for Paul and Bar´na?bas and some others of them to go up to the apostles and older men in Jerusalem regarding this dispute.
3 Accordingly, after being conducted partway by the congregation, these men continued on their way through both Phoe?ni´cia and Sa?mar´i?a, relating in detail the conversion of people of the nations, and they were causing great joy to all the brothers. 4 On arriving in Jerusalem they were kindly received by the congregation and the apostles and the older men, and they recounted the many things God had done by means of them. 5 Yet, some of those of the sect of the Pharisees that had believed rose up from their seats and said: ?It is necessary to circumcise them and charge them to observe the law of Moses.?

Seems to have caused quite an argument.

6 And the apostles and the older men gathered together to see about this affair. 7 Now when much disputing had taken place, Peter rose and said to them: ?Men, brothers, YOU well know that from early days God made the choice among YOU that through my mouth people of the nations should hear the word of the good news and believe; 8 and God, who knows the heart, bore witness by giving them the holy spirit, just as he did to us also. 9 And he made no distinction at all between us and them, but purified their hearts by faith. 10 Now, therefore, why are YOU making a test of God by imposing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke that neither our forefathers nor we were capable of bearing? 11 On the contrary, we trust to get saved through the undeserved kindness of the Lord Jesus in the same way as those people also.?

Paul & Barnabas finally get the floor.

12 At that the entire multitude became silent, and they began to listen to Bar´na?bas and Paul relate the many signs and portents that God did through them among the nations.

Perhaps more respect given to James by these Judean brothers than given to Paul? Sometimes local elder listened to more readily, or maybe because of sharing a similar view about need to still follow the Law?

13 After they quit speaking, James answered, saying: ?Men, brothers, hear me. 14 Sym´e?on has related thoroughly how God for the first time turned his attention to the nations to take out of them a people for his name. 15 And with this the words of the Prophets agree, just as it is written, 16 ?After these things I shall return and rebuild the booth of David that is fallen down; and I shall rebuild its ruins and erect it again, 17 in order that those who remain of the men may earnestly seek Jehovah, together with people of all the nations, people who are called by my name, says Jehovah, who is doing these things, 18 known from of old.? 19 Hence my decision is not to trouble those from the nations who are turning to God, 20 but to write them to abstain from things polluted by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood. 21 For from ancient times Moses has had in city after city those who preach him, because he is read aloud in the synagogues on every sabbath.? 22 Then the apostles and the older men together with the whole congregation favored sending chosen men from among them to Antioch along with Paul and Bar´na?bas, namely, Judas who was called Bar´sab?bas and Silas, leading men among the brothers; 23 and by their hand they wrote: ?The apostles and the older men, brothers, to those brothers in Antioch and Syria and Ci?li´cia who are from the nations: Greetings!

Admission that problem was from Jerusalem , although not instructed to do so.

24 Since we have heard that some from among us have caused YOU trouble with speeches, trying to subvert YOUR souls, although we did not give them any instructions, 25 we have come to a unanimous accord and have favored choosing men to send to YOU together with our loved ones, Bar´na?bas and Paul, 26 men that have delivered up their souls for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Later Paul had been warned by the spirit that if he went to Jerusalem , he would be imprisoned and face tribulations.

(Acts 20:22 -23) 22 And now, look! bound in the spirit, I am journeying to Jerusalem , although not knowing the things that will happen to me in it, 23 except that from city to city the holy spirit repeatedly bears witness to me as it says that bonds and tribulations are waiting for me.

(Acts 21:4) 4 By a search we found the disciples and remained here seven days. But through the spirit they repeatedly told Paul not to set foot in Jerusalem .

(Acts 21:8-14) 8 The next day we set out and arrived in Caes?a?re´a, and we entered into the house of Philip the evangelizer, who was one of the seven men, and we stayed with him. 9 This man had four daughters, virgins, that prophesied. 10 But while we were remaining quite a number of days, a certain prophet named Ag´a?bus came down from Ju?de´a, 11 and he came to us and took up the girdle of Paul, bound his own feet and hands and said: ?Thus says the holy spirit, ?The man to whom this girdle belongs the Jews will bind in this manner in Jerusalem and deliver into the hands of people of the nations.?? 12 Now when we heard this, both we and those of that place began entreating him not to go up to . 13 Then Paul answered: ?What are YOU doing by weeping and making me weak at heart? Rest assured, I am ready not only to be bound but also to die at for the name of the Lord Jesus.? 14 When he would not be dissuaded, we acquiesced with the words: ?Let the will of Jehovah take place.?

Years later governing body (??) was still concerned about impression given to Jews, leading to the bad advice given to Paul resulting in his arrest.

(Acts -25) 18 But on the following [day] Paul went in with us to James; and all the older men were present. 19 And he greeted them and began giving in detail an account of the things God did among the nations through his ministry. 20 After hearing this they began to glorify God, and they said to him: ?You behold, brother, how many thousands of believers there are among the Jews; and they are all zealous for the Law. 21 But they have heard it rumored about you that you have been teaching all the Jews among the nations an apostasy from Moses, telling them neither to circumcise their children nor to walk in the [solemn] customs. 22 What, then, is to be done about it? In any case they are going to hear you have arrived. 23 Therefore do this which we tell you: We have four men with a vow upon themselves. 24 Take these men along and cleanse yourself ceremonially with them and take care of their expenses, that they may have their heads shaved. And so everybody will know that there is nothing to the rumors they were told about you, but that you are walking orderly, you yourself also keeping the Law. 25 As for the believers from among the nations, we have sent out, rendering our decision that they should keep themselves from what is sacrificed to idols as well as from blood and what is strangled and from fornication.?

This advice did not turn out too well for Paul, since he was beaten, arrested and later sent to Rome as a prisoner. Jesus did make this turn out for the good anyway.

, so you must also bear witness in Rome .?

Here?s the WT on this incident: *** w87 8/1 pp. 13-14 Christ Actively Leads His Congregation ***
An Unusual Decision
15 Another interesting example of Christ?s active direction of things from heaven is what took place after Paul?s third missionary journey. Luke relates that upon returning to Jerusalem , Paul made a full report to the members of the governing body on hand. Luke wrote: ?Paul went in with us to James; and all the older men were present. And he greeted them and began giving in detail an account of the things God did among the nations through his ministry.? (Acts 21:17-19) After hearing Paul, the assembled body gave him clear-cut instruction, stating: ?Do this which we tell you.? They ordered him to go to the temple and publicly demonstrate that he was not ?teaching all the Jews among the nations an apostasy from Moses, telling them neither to circumcise their children nor to walk in the solemn customs.??Acts -24.
16 One might question the wisdom of this instruction. As we have already seen, years earlier James, and perhaps other elders present on both occasions, had sent Paul away from because his life was threatened by ?Greek-speaking Jews.? (Acts ) In spite of this, Paul complied with the order, in line with what he had already said at 1 Corinthians 9:20. But like causes produce like effects. ?Jews from [the Roman province of] ? caused a riot and tried to kill Paul. Only quick action by Roman soldiers saved him from being lynched. (Acts 21:26-32) Since Christ is the active Head of the congregation, why did he cause the governing body to require Paul to go into the temple?
17 The answer becomes apparent in what occurred the second night after Paul?s arrest. He had given a fine witness to the mob that sought to kill him and, the following day, to the Sanhedrin. (Acts 22:1-21; 23:1-6) For the second time he was nearly lynched. But that night, Jesus appeared to him and said: ?Be of good courage! For as you have been giving a thorough witness on the things about me in Jerusalem, so you must also bear witness in Rome.? (Acts ) Remember the threefold mission Christ had foretold for Paul. (Acts ) Paul had borne Christ?s name to ?the nations? and to ?the sons of Israel,? but the time had now come for him to witness ?to kings.? Because of that decision by the governing body, Paul was able to witness to Roman procurators Felix and Festus, to King Herod Agrippa II, and, finally, to Roman Emperor Nero. (Acts, chapters 24?26; 27:24) Who can doubt that Christ was behind all of this?

Conveniently forgotten is the fact that Jesus previously warned Paul not to go. So was Jesus behind all this, or did he give Paul warnings to avoid Jerusalem, knowing that Paul would follow the misguided advice of the brothers in ?

EVIDENCE FROM GALATIANS

Paul contacted directly by Jesus at his conversion and did not then report to a governing body. Even when he did go to Jerusalem , he did not see a governing body.

Neither did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles previous to me, but I went off into Arabia , and I came back again to Damascus . 18 Then three years later I went up to Jerusalem to visit Ce´phas, and I stayed with him for fifteen days. 19 But I saw no one else of the apostles, only James the brother of the Lord.

Absent from Jerusalem for 14 years and then went only because of the problem that started from there.

(Galatians 2:1-14) 2 Then after fourteen years I again went up to Jerusalem with Bar´na?bas, taking also Titus along with me. 2 But I went up as a result of a revelation. And I laid before them the good news which I am preaching among the nations, privately, however, before those who were outstanding men, for fear that somehow I was running or had run in vain. 3 Nevertheless, not even Titus, who was with me, was compelled to be circumcised, although he was a Greek. 4 But because of the false brothers brought in quietly, who sneaked in to spy upon our freedom which we have in union with Christ Jesus, that they might completely enslave us?

Paul refused to submit to brothers from Jerusalem.

5 to these we did not yield by way of submission, no, not for an hour, in order that the truth of the good news might continue with YOU.

Paul apparently observed no clearly defined positions and did not receive any new light there. It seems to me that Paul was not in the least reticent in their presence or intimidated by brothers in Jerusalem.

6 But on the part of those who seemed to be something ? whatever sort of men they formerly were makes no difference to me?God does not go by a man?s outward appearance? to me, in fact, those outstanding men imparted nothing new. 7 But, on the contrary, when they saw that I had entrusted to me the good news for those who are uncircumcised, just as Peter [had it] for those who are circumcised? 8 for He who gave Peter powers necessary for an apostleship to those who are circumcised gave powers also to me for those who are of the nations; 9 yes, when they came to know the undeserved kindness that was given me, James and Ce´phas and John, the ones who seemed to be pillars, gave me and Bar´na?bas the right hand of sharing together, that we should go to the nations, but they to those who are circumcised. 10 Only we should keep the poor in mind. This very thing I have also earnestly endeavored to do.

Paul again refused to submit to wrong example of Peter. James seemed unable to even convince his close associates to change some of their behavior in regard to their Gentile brothers even after the council in Jerusalem.

11 However, when Ce´phas came to Antioch, I resisted him face to face, because he stood condemned. 12 For before the arrival of certain men from James, he used to eat with people of the nations; but when they arrived, he went withdrawing and separating himself, in fear of those of the circumcised class.

Another example of concern with impression given to Jews.

13 The rest of the Jews also joined him in putting on this pretense, so that even Bar´na?bas was led along with them in their pretense. 14 But when I saw they were not walking straight according to the truth of the good news, I said to Ce´phas before them all: ?If you, though you are a Jew, live as the nations do, and not as Jews do, how is it that you are compelling people of the nations to live according to Jewish practice??

WT writes that Paul was a member of the 1st century governing body. They apparently did not meet very often since as far as we know, Paul only met with them twice in over twenty years.

Peter is also viewed as part of this governing body, yet his letters are written from Babylon . That would also seem to be a hindrance to attending governing body meetings in .

Not one letter in the Bible is written collectively and anonymously by a governing body, only individuals were used. When Jesus wanted someone to do something in particular, Jesus contacted them directly.

WT seems to imply that authority of apostles was superseded by governing body: *** w97 5/15 pp. 16-17 Theocratic Administration in the Christian Era ***
6 When Paul came to Jerusalem about the year 56 C.E., he reported to James and, the Bible says, ?all the older men were present.? (Acts ) Why was there no mention of apostles at this meeting? Again, the Bible does not say. But the historian Eusebius later reported that some time before 66 C.E., ?the remaining apostles, in constant danger from murderous plots, were driven out of . But to teach their message they travelled into every land in the power of Christ.? (Eusebius, Book III, V, v. 2) True, Eusebius? words are not part of the inspired record, but they do harmonize with what that record says. For example, by 62 C.E., Peter was in Babylon ?far from Jerusalem . (1 Peter 5:13) Still, in 56 C.E., and likely right up until 66 C.E., a governing body was clearly active in Jerusalem .

So I just don?t see much evidence to support the contention that there was a 1st century governing body administering the congregations. Some such arrangement may be appropriate now (although somewhat Pharisaical and proud as portrayed in the literature, IMHO ) in view of the fact that we don?t have the benefit of inspiration or direct communication with Jesus or angels, but I don?t really see that is the way it was in the 1st century.

OldSoul

afin: RM ... I see the word sarcasm is not in your limited vocabulary. (my violin = your mind)

I can see there is no room for me in your religion. It is further evidence that I am swine if I am offended at you calling RescueMe mindless, I suppose.

a friend in need

os ,,, for the benefit of lurkers ...you ARE one of Jehovah's Witnesses . albeit a poor one example.

RM .. my example ( my violin = your brain ) was rather good, since I don't own a violin.

stevenyc

os,

Asking questions is not something JW?s do. As an Elder you would be asked to wait on Jehovah, if all the answers

given to you weren?t satisfactory. Then you would be placed into a position of choice if you could not wait. That choice being wait or go.

OldSoul

No problem, RescueMe.

I only posted that for the lurkers. They expect "worldly" people to act like that, but afin pretends to be a Witness. I am not saying I think you were acting worldly, I think you were acting human. Afin isn't living up to her own overly elevated standards, that's all.

stillajwexelder

I am a baptized witness in good standing and I used to be an elder so may I comment

The elders do have the answers and it IS very convenient! - - They do not - in many congregations there are many sisters who have far more bible knowledge - JWs might as well be the Catholic Church if they take this line - in other words -- I do not know ask my priest he has the answers.

Many elders when they are with fellow elders who they trust and not a CO will admit that scripturally the WTBTS is wrong about many things - that is fact - if you read Crisis of Conscience you will discover it is even the same on the Governing Body. As one CO said at a Body of Elders meeting "If person X starts asking questions, disfellowship them and worry about any appeal later - apostasy will spread like gangrene - congreagtion unity is more important - we can not have brothers and sisters asking questions about the FDS "

OldSoul

shadow: Jesus did not have to preach there.

I do not mean to be argumentative, and I haven't fully considered your post yet. I have to go eat dinner, but I would like to drop one thought for you to chew on.

Would Jesus teach anything in the synagogue as truth that he did not personally agree with? Would he teach his disciples anything as truth that he did not personally agree with? If I follow his example, would I be disfellowshipped for doing so?

Respectfully,
OldSoul

a friend in need

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