a friend in need (page 37)

Kenneson

While you are at http://www.watchtower.org look to the right of the page, scroll down and go to www.jw-media.org . Look on the right again and scroll down to View News by Issue and click on Humanitarian efforts. My question is why is there yet no mention of the tsunami in Southeast Asia and relief efforts of Jehovah's Witnesses to the millions that they try to convert? Do you find an answer there? But I'm sure when they get around to it, they will tell us about all the wonderful things they have done there for their own and those who study with them. By the way, those they study with or perhaps their neighbors ??? will be the non-Witnesses whom they have helped. Everyone else will just have to depend on the big bad relief agencies, churches and governments for aid or die.

OldSoul

shadow,

It is readily apparent that you are a sincere student, although also an elder. I really feel you do not find me inferior to you, and in my experience that in itself is a rarity among elders. Thank you for providing considered responses. I will respond in kind.

Immediately Moses listened to the voice of his father-in-law and did all that he had said.
This was not a divinely mandated arrangement. The suggestion was made by a non-Israelite who quite possibly worshipped other gods. Still this seems to have been acceptable in Jehovah's eyes.

True. I consider this account as related to be evidence that as long as Moses' actions did not conflict with Jehovah's will he was allowed to make reasonable provisions for meeting the needs of the people. However, there is ample evidence of which I am sure you are aware, that Moses did not prefigure a Faithful and Discreet Slave directed by a Governing Body. If Moses prefigured anyone, he prefigured Jesus, even according to the explanation given by the Governing Body. That being the case, are you suggesting that this gross example of manipulative human direction is at the behest of Jesus?

We all know of David's past, yet here he is instituting some organizational structure without instructions to do so.

True. David was the King over Israel. He was responsible for the early termination of many Israelites once before for numbering the people to determine military strength. (1 Chronicles 21:1) So obviously he was not allowed to do whatever he wanted. There were limits. And again, if David prefigures anyone, he prefigures Jesus (Acts 2).

Jesus publicly condemned these men. He and his disciples did not obey them. So why did he make the curious statement "Therefore all the things they tell YOU, do and observe"? Just my personal opinion, but Jesus clearly knew when the leaders were wrong, others probably did not know. Still, Jesus continued to teach in the synagogues and worship at the temple. It seems we have a similar situation now.

I think this is a bit disingenuous of you, although not likely intentional. I will not respond as though you were trying to stretch a point too far. It is clear from the context (i.e. the rest of the 23rd chapter) that he was making people aware. He would have been labeled an apostate by the current organization for the things he said in the 23rd chapter. Are you agreeing that the Faithful and Discreet Slave and/or the Governing Body are modern day Pharisees? I would readily accept that, if so. Otherwise, why the comparison?

When I read the next two paragraphs of Matthew 23, it becomes crystal clear to me that Jesus was speaking sardonically in verse 3:

Matthew 23:13-15 13 "Woe to YOU, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because YOU shut up the kingdom of the heavens before men; for YOU yourselves do not go in, neither do YOU permit those on their way in to go in. 14 ?

15 "Woe to YOU, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because YOU traverse sea and dry land to make one proselyte, and when he becomes one YOU make him a subject for Ge·hen´na twice as much so as yourselves.

If we are to take verse 3 as instructions for the people, as you suggest, then Jesus encouraged his listeners to make themselves ... unfit for the kingdom of the heavens. If we are to take verse 3 as instructions, then Jesus encouraged his listeners to make themselves ... subject to Gehenna twice as much as the Pharisees. Is that really how you believe verse 3 should be understood?

Jesus taught in the synagogues and worshipped at the temple to do exactly what Paul said he did: fulfill the law. He did not do as he "instructed" in verse 3. He did not do according to all that the Pharisees said. Therefore, either the interpretation of verse 3 is wrong or Jesus was also a hypocrite.

Jesus was a Jew, born under the Jewish system of things and bound by its law. He freed us from law written on stone tablets and offered us a law inscribed in hearts. In our day, Pharisees try to brace up a wall around the Law of Christ. In our day, Pharisees try to make us subject again to man's law - subverting the faith of many. (Acts 15:22-29) In our day, Pharisees want us to be figuratively "circumcised in the flesh." (Galatians 5:1-12). I agree with your comparison. I reject, as Jesus rejected, the teachings of Pharisees.

To be acceptable to Jehovah, the Pharisees had to change their minds. (Acts 15)

Were you unable to find Scriptural proofs in favor of the doctrinal answers I asked about? The reason it is so vital, in my opinion, is because the baptismal questions changed. I will send you a Word document, that I wrote by way of explanation, regarding that change. I'll add that part to this post:

The OLD Baptismal Questions...

w73 5/1 p. 280 Baptizing Follows Discipling

25 After considering what has been published on the preceding pages, if you are one who has been learning and you wish to observe the commandments of Jesus Christ, what should you do? Peter reminds you that the way is open to you; Jehovah wants you to come into harmony with him: ?Jehovah . . . is patient with you because he does not desire any to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance.? (2 Pet. 3:9; see also 2 Corinthians 5:18?6:2; Revelation 22:17.) After the Ethiopian had learned from Philip, he asked: ?What prevents me from getting baptized?? (Acts 8:36) If you feel the same about serving Jehovah God and taking Christ?s yoke upon you, we suggest that you consider the following two questions, which are asked of candidates for baptism:
Have you repented of your sins and turned around, recognizing yourself before Jehovah God as a condemned sinner who needs salvation, and have you acknowledged to him that this salvation proceeds from him, the Father, through his Son Jesus Christ?
On the basis of this faith in God and in his provision for salvation, have you dedicated yourself unreservedly to God to do his will henceforth as he reveals it to you through Jesus Christ and through the Bible under the enlightening power of the holy spirit?

NOTICE: No "Earthly Organization" is mentioned, no affirmation declaring an association with any organization. There is no agreement that any earthly organization, or specific group of humans is spirit-directed. Focus is entirely on an individual relationship with Jehovah and on the personal revelation of the will of God through study of the Bible under the guidance of Jehovah's holy spirit. Associating with others who are likewise students of the Bible, guided by holy spirit would obviously be beneficial, but is not specifically mentioned. Note too, the second question outlines the identical process explained in 1 Corinthians 2, James 1, and the process which Jesus, himself, said would take place. This fits with the model set by 1st Century Christianity.

The NEW Baptismal Questions (75% lighter)...

w85 6/1 p. 30 Subjecting Ourselves to Jehovah by Dedication

Decision Based on Knowledge

Likewise this year many thousands are contemplating the step of baptism during the ?Integrity Keepers? Convention that will be held in many locations worldwide. Before reaching this point of baptism, all candidates have carefully reviewed with congregation elders the Bible?s principal doctrines and guidelines for Christian conduct to make sure they really qualify for baptism. Thus the decision to be baptized is by no means a sudden emotional reaction. Rather, each one has ?proved for himself the good and acceptable and perfect will of God? and wishes to submit to that will.?Romans 12:2.

At the close of the convention baptism talk, the baptism candidates will be in position to answer with depth of understanding and heartfelt appreciation two simple questions that serve to confirm that they recognize the implications of following Christ?s example. The first question is:

On the basis of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, have you repented of your sins and dedicated yourself to Jehovah to do his will?

The second is:

Do you understand that your dedication and baptism identify you as one of Jehovah?s Witnesses in association with God?s spirit-directed organization?

Having answered yes to these questions, candidates are in a right heart condition to undergo Christian baptism.

NOTICE: There is no need to be a student of the Bible at all. The Bible is not mentioned, neither is the holy spirit, or its operation on individuals. You merely need to confess your repentant state and identify yourself as one of Jehovah's Witnesses and associate with an earthly organization that claims to be spirit-directed (the identical claim made by the Catholic Church). With two alterations, those are almost the same questions asked before baptism in just about every "Christian" Church in the U.S., if you replace "Jehovah" with "God" or "The Lord" in the first question and replace "Jehovah's Witnesses" with the name of the Church in question in the second.

Respectfully,
OldSoul

OldSoul

seven006: Elvis has left the building.

While that is true, this thread never has been just about a f i n. I knew a f i n would have to struggle to find proofs if she could at all. She has decided to leave me in shadow's capable hands, abdicating her personal responsibility to prove to anyone who asks the reason for her personal convictions.

I think this thread is important for lurkers, especially JW lurkers, to consider carefully. JW lurkers, hopefully each of you will ask yourself, "How would I have reacted? Would my reaction have brought as much shame on Jehovah's name and reputation as a f i n's reaction? Can I scripturally substantiate these things I ask others to believe and place confidence in?"

Respectfully,
OldSoul

a friend in need

Just popped in here to see what's up .... and why am I surprised? Still whining!!

You got what you asked for ... you could go to www.watchtower.org OR talk to an elder. An elder is giving you answers ....

And yet you keep right on whining ....

seeitallclearlynow

Somewhat typical JW style friend in time of need...no practical help at all.

Not to say some JWs are not loving and helpful, because I've known some who are/were.

OldSoul

a f i n: An elder is giving you answers ....

Um ... you didn't bother to read the thread, did you? Shadow hasn't given proofs of any of those four answers yet. Such blind faith you have.

frenchbabyface

An elder is giving you answers ....

... ... did you read that they had no relevant answers from any elder but just have been qualified as Apostate because they were asking questions that Elders couldn't give any answers to and because the real answers (not from them) put the blame on the JW's teaching ... Please be fair to those so called apostates (we don't care what they are by the way cause what is an appostate : check your dico) You can't judge/labell them as lets say "bad", someone who can't believe or who don't want to follow bullshit ...

Now what about : pedophiles in the organisation and any kind of abuser ... you might shake their hand at every meating (and some Elders know about it ... pfffffffffffffffffffffff ... What do you think GOD (if there is one) would think about THAT ?

a friend in need

os ... will that be cheddar or gouda ????

jgnat

Whining or winning? I am just waiting....

OldSoul

a f i n: I asked for Scriptures. What I got is what you decided to give me. Nothing helpful.

a f i n: You got what you asked for ... you could go to watchtower.org

I did not ask to go to watchtower.org, I did not ask for an elder. So what do you mean? Or is this just another little black lie to dodge with.

Okay, here's a deal for you: You find the Scriptures that prove those four answers on watchtower.org and link to them. Then I can click right to my answers without having to wade through what seems to be hypocritical claims of making fishers of men out of their subjects. Then you will have grounds to say "You got what you asked for ..."

a friend in need

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