a friend in need

by OldSoul 604 Replies latest members private

RebelliousSpirit

Honesty just kills them, eh RS?

(((Alan)))
AlanF

(((HUGS))) back atcha, RS!
AlanF
OldSoul

afin: By printing it I imagine they must give it credence though.

afin: You assume too much ...

I was just about to say that. You assume too much. WAAAAYYYY too much.
Like, for instance, that I am out of the org, that I am a young man, that the elders have more scriptural understanding than the flock but are not a clergy class, that by printing things in Watching the World the Slave is giving credence to them (despite the many articles in that section regarding the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church), that I have been adversely judged by a congregation - EVER, that I have ulterior motives in asking for Scriptures to prove the answers given by the Faithful and Discreet Slave ... my, my ... the list just goes on and on. Why, you're just a bevy of unbased assumption, aren't you.
I assume you were holding the article in your hand and neglected to mention that the source was not the Faithful and Discreet Slave. I assume that you did not accidentally overlook mentioning the source. I assume that your negligence was incredibly convenient, given the point you were trying to make to Jim. I assume that you realized that your convenient neglect would not play well when the real source of the quote was unveiled. I assume that you then corrected it, but did not have to reread the article to know that it was not the Slave's viewpoint being expressed. I assume that you had to reread the article to remember the exact source for the quotes you gave.
Unlike your assumptions, mine have some basis. Also, unlike my reaction to your assumptions, you refuse to clarify which of my assumptions are in error. When will you credit this forum with some intelligence and discernment? That is rhetorical, I already know the answer. When you are ready to wake up.
Peace,
OldSoul
OldSoul

By the by, afin: Any clue how much text you have posted resisting the Bible's clear instructions to present a Scriptural defense to me for your beliefs?
rwagoner

afin,
You asked, what if the jws are right? What basis would I have to think that was actually possible ?
I was in the org for 20 years, raised in it, elder father..I was a young man being groomed for bigger things in the cong.
In that time the "new light" flashed more often than cameras at a Janet Jackson half time show. Teachings changed, rules changed, dates changed and all from the FDS who were supposedly my link to God. I needed to believe them and trust them because they were spirit directed and who was I to question that.
As I got older my wonderful God given free will kicked in and I started thinking, HUGE mistake if I wanted to stay in the org ! If God is all knowing and perfect....why did he keep sending direction to the FDS that turned out to be wrong and thus needed a "new light" correction? Surely God knew when the old system would end.... Surely God taught in His scriptures that love and forgiveness were the principles to follow not breaking up families and shunning parents and children... Surely if God had Joseph and Mary register with the government then jws in malawai (sp) should not have had to die rather than carry a registration card...
Surely a perfect God did not continually send mistaken information...perhaps a man made ~~religion~~ publishing company just isn't getting the messages right...perhaps the org is just like all the other religions that they condem. In my 20 years in the org and in the 16 years that I have been out I have seen little evidence that the jw have "the truth" as they claim. Child abuse, UN Membership, stock profits from arms dealers and tobacco companies, rewrites to publications to cover their misinterpretation...and I wont even get into Russell and Rutherford or pyramids or blatant racism.
When I began to question the org I was told by the elders and CO that I should not read the Bible so much as it would confuse me. Only the FDS and GB were capable of understanding it. When I disassociated myself the elders came to my house and told me take my letter back and stay in because it would be easier on my family. I was dumbfounded...I actually asked them if they were telling me to live a lie simply because it would be more convenient even though they knew I no longer believed...obviously they didn't answer.
So what if they are right ? From my experience and research I have just as good odds as a Lutheran, Methodist, Catholic or just reading my Bible and trusting in my personal faith as I do with a cultish commercial man made enterprise like the jw's. I think I'll take my chances.
So, my "Friend in Need"...I read your posts with interst but this is a Discussion Board and discussion is more than robotic repetition of org speak it is thoughtful conversation which in itself suggests the need for thought. Most here are, as I think you have seen, respectful and willing to listen to differing opinions but it is personal opinions and thoughts that we are interested in, we've all heard the company line and for many of us it just doesn't hold a lot of water anymore.
RGW
pr_capone

afin - this is the current watchtowe policy with some commentary. This is in response to Big Tex's request that you show current WT policy and your reply of the watching the world article. The commentary is not my own but I could not have said it any better. source is linked below.
1. Report matter to the police first.
What does the Watchtower say? Note the 97 WT on direction for reporting what is bad:
w97 8/15 26-30 Why Report What Is Bad?
Appreciating the Value of Reproof Among Jehovah?s people, however, there is a different attitude toward reproof. Godly men and women deeply appreciate the arrangement Jehovah has made to help erring ones inside the Christian congregation . They recognize such discipline as an expression of his loving-kindness.?Hebrews 12:6-11.
What is that arrangement? Is it going to the police when a crime is committed?
In our day too, Jehovah?s servants can become involved in serious wrongdoing, even those who have been faithful for many years. Recognizing that the elders can assist, most take the initiative to approach them for help. (James 5:13-16) But sometimes a wrongdoer may try to cover up his sin, as did King David. What should we do if we come to know about serious wrongdoing in the congregation?
Whose Responsibility Is It?
When elders learn about serious wrongdoing, they approach the individual involved to give needed help and correction. It is the elders? responsibility to judge such ones inside the Christian congregation. Keeping a close watch on its spiritual condition, they assist and admonish anyone who is taking an unwise or wrong step .?1 Corinthians 5:12, 13; 2 Timothy 4:2; 1 Peter 5:1, 2.
So does this just apply to slander of moral crimes committed by adults that break bible law? Notice the scripture used to define wrongdoing.
But what if you are not an elder and you come to know about some serious wrongdoing on the part of another Christian? Guidelines are found in the Law that Jehovah gave to the nation of Israel . The Law stated that if a person was a witness to apostate acts, sedition, murder, or certain other serious crimes , it was his responsibility to report it and to testify to what he knew. Leviticus 5:1 states: ?Now in case a soul sins in that he has heard public cursing and he is a witness or he has seen it or has come to know of it, if he does not report it, then he must answer for his error.??Compare Deuteronomy 13:6-8; Esther 6:2; Proverbs 29:24.
Though not under the Mosaic Law, Christians today can be guided by the principles behind it. (Psalm 19:7, 8) So if you learn about the serious wrongdoing of a fellow Christian , what should you do?
Where are we given the right here to call the police? Not one word offered. So who do you go to? See below.
Handling the Matter
First of all, it is important that there is valid reason to believe that serious wrongdoing has really occurred. ? Do not become a witness against your fellowman without grounds,? stated the wise man. ?Then you would have to be foolish with your lips.??Proverbs 24:28.
You may decide to go directly to the elders. It is not wrong to do so. Usually, however, the most loving course is to approach the person involved. Perhaps the facts are not as they appear to be. Or perhaps the situation is already being handled by the elders. Calmly discuss the matter with the person. If there remains reason to believe that a serious wrong has been committed, encourage him or her to approach the elders for help, and explain the wisdom of doing so. Do not talk to others about the matter, for that would be gossip.
If the person does not report to the elders within a reasonable period of time, then you should. One or two elders will then discuss the matter with the accused. The elders need to ?search and investigate and inquire thoroughly? to see if wrong has been done. If it has, they will handle the case according to Scriptural guidelines. ?Deuteronomy 13:12 -14.
Who investigates the crime first? THE ELDERS! Yet still no mention of going to the police. Then if there are only one witness what do you have to do? Report it to police then? See Below.
At least two witnesses are required to establish a charge of wrongdoing. (John 8:17; Hebrews 10:28 ) If the person denies the charge and your testimony is the only one, the matter will be left in Jehovah?s hands. (1 Timothy 5:19, 24, 25) This is done in the knowledge that all things are ?openly exposed? to Jehovah and that if the person is guilty, eventually his sins will ?catch up? with him.?Hebrews 4:13 ; Numbers 32:23.
There you have it the basis of discouraging victims to go to the police. They are clearly instructed to leave it in Jehovah?s hands. That means do nothing. Can you warn any other parents whose children may be in harms way? See Below.
But suppose the person does deny the charge and you are the only witness against him. Could you now be open to a countercharge of slander? No, not unless you have gossiped to those not involved in the matter. It is not slanderous to report conditions affecting a congregation to those having authority and responsibility to oversee and correct matters. It is, in fact, in line with our desire always to do what is correct and loyal.?Compare Luke 1:74, 75.
So if you gossip and tell others about your child being molested you could be charged with slander and expelled from the congregation. What is the reason why? See Below.
Maintaining Holiness in the Congregation
One reason for reporting wrongdoing is that it works to preserve the cleanness of the congregation. Jehovah is a clean God, a holy God. He requires all those who worship him to be spiritually and morally clean. His inspired Word admonishes: ?As obedient children, quit being fashioned according to the desires you formerly had in your ignorance, but, in accord with the Holy One who called you, do you also become holy yourselves in all your conduct, because it is written: ?You must be holy, because I am holy.?? (1 Peter 1:14-16) Individuals who practice uncleanness or wrongdoing can bring defilement and Jehovah?s disfavor upon an entire congregation unless action is taken to correct or remove them.?Compare Joshua, chapter 7.
The congregation does their own dirty laundry and keeps outsiders uninformed. This is the basis of how the congregation operates. Jehovah?s Witnesses are NOT free to go to the police. They are required to OBEY the direction of the elders. If they do not they are disfellowshipped . Thus Watchtower Policy requires a child molestation victim to go to the ELDERS FIRST and this is the error of WT policy.
2. A pedophile should never hold a position of responsibility within the congregation.
The 1-1-97 Watchtower seemed to indicate this would be the policy for Jehovah?s Witnesses, yet in just three short months a letter was sent (along with more to follow) to Bodies of Elders that changed that policy. The 97 letter stated:
?It may be possible that some who were guilty of child molestation were or are now serving as elders, ministerial servants, or regular or special pioneers. Others may have been guilty of child molestation before they were baptized. The bodies of elders should not query individuals.?
This statement made provision for pedophile to continue to serve. That was further collaborated by the 6-1-01 letter to Bodies of Elders in England which states:
?There is one exception to the above direction: The elders may have written to the branch office and given full details about a former child abuser who is currently serving as an elder or ministerial servant. In such a case, if the branch office has decided that he can be appointed or continue serving in a position of trust because the sin occurred many years ago and because he has lived an exemplary life since then, his name should not appear on the List, nor is it necessary to pass on information about the brother?s past sin if he moves to another congregation unless contrary instructions have been given by the branch.?
Child Molesters are clearly given positions of responsibility within the congregation at the direction of WT Policy. Time passing should be no factor for a pedophile.
3. Child molesters should never be allowed to participate in the door to door ministry.
Is this WT policy? Please note the 1-1-97 Watchtower which initially established molester policy. What would a child molester who is newly released from prison be required to do to show his repentance? See Below.
w97 1/1 29 Let Us Abhor What Is Wicked
?Depending on the law of the land where he lives, the molester may well have to serve a prison term or face other sanctions from the State? ?If he seems to be repentant, he will be encouraged to make spiritual progress, share in the field service ..?
A newly released child molester is required by WT Policy to call at the homes of the unknowing public. THAT IS WT POLICY!
This information shows without doubt something is terribly wrong in this matter. This ?Policy? presents a danger to children within the organization as well as those who are met in the door to door work. If the Governing Body really wishes to be a ?faithful slave? they should move at ONCE to correct this mistake and protect the children.
link
http://silentlambs.org/answers/WhatmustWtdo.cfm
many thanks to SilentLambs.org
Kansas District Overbeer
Jud

AFIN, do you have kids?
a friend in need

Jud ... whether I have kids or not has no bearing on the issue. It's like asking a witness who is told by a doctor that they need blood. A Christian based belief takes priority.
a friend in need

pr_capone ... I've been looking for the edit button but can't find it. Just want to thank you for your detailed post. I asked the sister who studied with me about this issue. She said by all means go to the police ... so there you have it.
brutusmaximus

Hi all, sorry for jumping in but can't hold back any longer.
AFIN, I went to the elders and asked the questions, I asked them to view me as a Borean one who was searching. I also showed them the scripture in Jude which talks about "soothing the head of those with questions" (I have paraphrased here).
What was the response? "What material have you been looking up to come up with these questions, did you you take apostate material?" At that point I hadn't looked at anything except some of the early publications produced by the WTBS.
I left shortly after as the questions I asked were not answered and also because I was being accused of something I had yet to do!
Ok rant over, sorry for bursting in.
BM

a friend in need

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