Unique1...that worked for me too!!!
amac: I knew that there was a way to defeat that wife anology thingie, and you hit it on the head! Way to go!, and thanks for that...
hello im new and I need your help
by PaNiCAtTaCk 109 Replies latest members private
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PaNiCAtTaCk
There are so many responses Im just taking them all in slowly. Please be patient with me its just alot to digest. I really appreciated this point that one poster made
"I'd like to make a comment on your friends analogy of "apostate" literature to being faithful in marriage. It is ridiculous and totally irrelevant....a better analogy would be that if you are married to the woman you love (equals being baptized and devoted to the F&DS) and there were numerous books (equals apostate lit) that documented how your wife has been lying to you and cheating on you (equals false doctrines, false literary quotes, being an NGO in the UN, etc) would you avoid those books simply because you loved your wife? Or better yet, what if your wife said "You better not read those books or I will kick you out of the house!" Wouldn't you think that odd? Wouldn't you think, well if you're not lying and cheating on me...why do you care so much if I look to see what these books are talking about?"..
I wish I could email this back to him but I know in my heart it would be the end of me. I just really appreciate everyone's responses. As many of you know when one go's through this crisis all you need is someone to talk to and thats almost impossible for a JW. When I was reading Crisis of Conscience a while
back I was really affected and lost lots of sleep over it. I couldnt contain the things I was reading to my self and I started sharing them with my wife. I soon realized that it was fairly easy to hurt her faith by the things I was sharing with her. I stopped sharing anymore with her because I could see that I was
hurting her faith also. The guilt was more than I could handle. I know that at any time I can talk to her and she will listen to me without me having to worry about her turning me in. My mom is the same way.
She should have turned me in a year ago. My wife was temporarily hurt by something she saw on Dateline or 60 minutes about child molestation against the society a couple of years ago. When I was growing up
my sister was touched inapproprietly by the presiding overseer on a couple of occasions. When my parents went to the Elder body and confronted the PO he just said my sister was craving attention. Well not long after that several young sisters went to the Elders and he was Disfellowshipped. My parents were never threatened not to go to the police. They just didnt because they felt it would bring reproach on Jehovah. They considered it taken care of. I dont doubt that some elders in some congregations have handled things wrong but they will have to stand before Jehovah for it at the same time. I just dont think that is enough to demonize the whole society. I just dont feel they are trying to hurt people.
As imperfect Brothers they are doing their best. I dont see the comparison of the Society and Hitler.
Other than I can see the control that they have.
Tonight when I go to the meeting I will set there and hear things that I enjoy that are truly bible based and Ill look around at the brothers and sisters and think to myself "Man this has to be the truth"
and then BOOM something will be said that I just dont agree with anymore and that really hurts. The other day a 17 year old brother was commenting that at the assembly when the brothers are giving the talks. We shouldnt view them as brothers but "we should look at that stage and see JEHOVAH talking to us" Everyone smiled as this young brother is reaching out and going through the same things that I
did at his age. Everyone is so proud of him for saying all the right things in his comments. It was just a year ago when he was helping me out in the literature room and he was really looking up to me.
Now he is inviting me in service and trying to encourage me. I feel pathetic. I just feel like I need to belong to a group serving JAH. I'm used to being told how to believe and I never had a problem with that. The thought of just ME AND MY BIBLE scares me. Until my next post........... Sorry about my ranting I'm just letting out a couple of years build up. Thanks everyone for being so kind and I'm reading everyones posts slowly taking everything in. -
Swan
Dear Brother;
I have tears in my eyes over your post and the agonizing dilemma that you now face. I see that you have carefully and extensively read, studied, and pondered over the new information that you have come across. You have read Ray's books, and read this board, and yet you are torn. They are your friends and family, and they love you.
You want to go back to not knowing what you know now, but the egg cannot be put back in its shell. What lead you to seek this new knowledge? What caused you to first doubt? Why did you decide to visit "apostate" boards? What led you to read Ray's books and subsequently correspond with someone whom the Watchtower's must consider the most dangerous and formidable apostate in the world today?
As I did, and others like me, you must search your heart for the answer. You must know what in your heart lead you to doubt, because to doubt is to think, but to act on those doubts, you must feel, with your heart. Only you know what you were thinking, and more importantly, what you were feeling when you made these decisions. Your feelings are what led you here. You must trust your feelings, because while reason and logic may indicate the correct path, only our feelings will give us the strength and motivation to set foot on that path.
I have long pondered why JWs continue to believe what they believe when they have expressed doubts, and why I did not. I liked to think I carefully reasoned it all out and made this as the most logical choice, but the truth be told, my feelings are what led me to this place. Just as my feelings held me there in place for 35 years, my feelings also gave me the strength to break free. I listened to my heart. My heart told me that my doubts were real, and that I should finally pay attention to them.
Are your feelings and instincts so untrustworthy that you can now ignore them? Apparently not, or the meetings would not be causing such a conflict for you. Deep inside you feel what you also know. You must search your soul, to find your answers. I believe you already know your answers. I believe you already strongly feel your answers. To follow them will require great courage, greater than you have ever known. The pain of your journey will be horrible; but the journey itself will be the right journey for you. You will know and feel this with confidence. Although you will often wonder if it was worth the great price, you will agree that as a costly as it was, the price had to be paid for your own integrity.
The best of wishes to you, dear brother, whatever you decide.
Tammy
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BrendaCloutier
Dear Panic,
I know you'll do what you feel is best for you and your family.
I just feel like I need to belong to a group serving JAH. I'm used to being told how to believe and I never had a problem with that.
Being told what to do, how to think, what to wear, and what to believe is so much easier than making choices. So many people are afraid of making the wrong choice that they get attached to high control organizations so they don't have to think for themselves. If you haven't thought for yourself for a long time, your thinker becomes atrophied.
I was raised in the "truth", too, daughter of a highly respected elder in a good congregation where brotherly love was highly visible, and charity was freely given to those in need.
I began questioning when I was young and able to ask my parents why the faithful baptist woman who took in neighbor children for meals, and fostered other children, who I felt was truly doing God's work, would die at armageddon. The answer I got was because she had the opportunity to hear the truth and refused it, she would die. I was about 12 when this came up. Even though I was baptized at 14 (mostly to please my parents), I continued the doubts about good, solid, Jehovah loving, doing God's work, non-JW's dying at armageddon. It just didn't seem right.
When I married that "good JW man" and moved to his congregation, amoung friends I had known growing up, and elders who appeared to respect my father, I was shunned by these "friends" for marrying into the wrong, weak, family. There were pleanty of other things I saw and experienced too. When I was in tears and called my dad, there was nothing he could do because it was a different congregation. When I brough it up with the Circuit Overseer, who knew my parents well and respected them, I was told that I was a woman, subject to my (abusive) husband, and I had no business telling (what boiled down to lies) on the elders. This was in 1976.
I quit going in service. I just couldn't bring myself to pass on the lies. I slowly quit going to meetings. The last memorial I attended was about 1978, maybe 1979. I felt like I had my faith beat out of my by the elders and CO and husband.
I finally divorced my violent abusive husband after attempting suicide with a 44 magnum because I didn't believe in divorce.
The pendulum swung and I went wild for a while. But the pendulum swings back. Today I'm Happy, Joyous, and Free! I have a belief structure shared by many. I have a spousal unit who loves me and more importantly, respects me. Today I own who I am. If I am called upon on Judgement Day, I will answer for who I am and what I have done.
I guess I had to tell you alittle about me and my experiences. I hope they help.
To quote from AA: "Easy Does It" and "One Day At A Time"
With love and hugs
Brenda
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lv4fer
There is life after leaving the Witnesses. There is happiness too. It comes slowly, but it does come. I appreciate the loving and kind words of Ray Franz. I totally agree with him. The way to the truth is through our Lord Jesus Christ. He is the way and the truth and the light. No organziation can give you that. And it is wrong for them to try and do that. We don't need a mediator between Jesus and ourselves. That is what the Jehovahs' Witnesses would like you to believe. I don't know how you can go back once you've come this far. You need to get out and be grateful that your wife seems to be open eyed enough to follow you. Spend some time reading the bible without the WT publications and get rid of the New World Translation it is very inacurate. I bought a good interlinear and also I like the NIV bible. WHen you read bibles that have not been translated trying to incorporate doctrines you will find the real TRUTH.
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Golf
Panic, I'll be brief. Make time your friend, as the saying goes, 'time heals all wounds.' Enjoy the company and fellowship of your family. Making issues and expecting quick results in serious matters will only make life uncomfortable and maybe unbearable. You've been given plenty of information to think about, give yourself TIME. Once again, enjoy the company and fellowship of your family.
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PinTail
Being in the so called "truth" is like smoking Winston cigs for 40 years and then try to quit, it takes a while for it to get out of your system. Just be a good and faithful husband to our wife, most of all laugh and have fun with her you know like "wine her and dine her," she will find out you don't have to be a JW to love her like she wants. She will see that you don't have to be a WT reader to be a good husband and a fantastic father. Being spiritual comes from with in, it does not come from the pages of the watch tower publications or any magazine, you will find your path give it time bro. Jehovah has always been there and always will, you must worship "him"; never some religious organization.
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PinTail
Basicly you have WT thinking, thats OK, but freedom comes from not being scared by the organization to do it or die.
Some people need fear in their life's I guess, but it bothers me to live like that; but you do and always will have the freedom to be in the organization, I find it inhuman to inject fear with love of god. It reminds me of song:
"You better NOT question, And you better NOT shout, You better NOT pout, And you better NOT complain im telling you why, armageden's comeing someday; The organization knows when youve been good or bad, so Get Out for Goodness Sake! ".
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PaNiCAtTaCk
What lead you to seek this new knowledge?
As a teenager in 1994 I first got on the internet. I did what alot of JW do the first time and typed in
"Jehovah". I stayed up all night reading apostate websites that were online then. Alot of them had quoutes from Crisis of Conscience. I couldnt believe some of the things I was reading and I talked to my mom on the phone like 2 days straight. I convinced myself that it was apostate lies and that "this has to be the truth". I was able to push what I read to the back of my mind and continue progressing in the hall.
I got married in 199* to a wonderful person and when we got pregnant in 199* our doctor asked me "how serious our convictions were as Jehovahs witnesses. Of course I was very zealous in my answer. He went on to say that he had delt with a witness before that after some complications and her baby needing blood she changed her mind and it almost cost the babies life. Something snapped in my mind and immedietly I started thinking about some of the blood issue things that I had read in 1994. I then visited a couple of apostate websites dealing with blood issue and I started having some doubts realizing that they had changed organ transplant policies in the past. Meanwhile some faithful ones had lost their lives because of these policies. I shared some of what I was reading with my wife and we both agreed that it would be so hard to say No blood in that situation. I talked with my Mom again and she made me feel better. She told me that yes it would be hard and that it was a very slim chance that would ever happen and if it did
she knows that I would do the right thing. I was able to supress feelings again for a while.
Why did you decide to visit "apostate" boards?
Last Christmas a guy at work asked me about our Holiday beliefs so I got on Encyclopedia.com and printed out the pagan origin article. Well he read it and said "I never knew that" and that was the end of it. Little did I know he left the information out and some of the other people at work read it. Some of them got mad so they got on the net and filled my box with apostate literature that next week. IN an effort to refute what they printed out I read all of it. Some of it was about the trinity brochure and how they misquouted some people along with false predictions.
I couldnt quit thinking of some of the things I had read and wondering if they were true so I started visiting websites again and rereading everything. So many people talked about Crisis of Conscience and IN search of CRistian freedom that after a while I just had to see what they were about. I found that I had no answer for some of the things they had put in my box and that even when witnessing at the door I found it hard because peopler were getting on the internet and reading apostate things and that alot of it was true. False predictions ect. ect. I was getting depressed finding it hard to witness effectively to people when i was having a hard time understanding a few things myself. After some of the thing i read regarding 607 I spent a long time at the library researching and also on the internet. I found that it truly seems that the society is wrong.
I talked to my cousin who went to Ministerial training school and had become and Elder about it and he said "1914 IS TRIVIAL REALLY AND IT DOESNT MATTER IF WE ARE WRONG ABOUT IT HE IS SURE WERE LIVING IN THE LAST DAYS" That kinda made sence to me. A more balance view anyways but unfortunately it started bother ing me everytime I heard mention of 1914 at the meetings. After reading two major apostate books and spending hours and hours on sites like this and others it was building up inside me so much I felt I needed to talk to someone.
What led you to read Ray's books and subsequently correspond with someone whom the Watchtower's must consider the most dangerous and formidable apostate in the world today?
I really appreciated the way Ray Franz delivered his message in a loving non
angry non apostate way so I decided to write him. I found his email address on this message board and I sent a huge heartfelt letter to him not expecting him to respond back. THE LETTER I POSTED WAS HIS FIRST RESPONSE TO ME. I think he could see I was very heartfelt in wanting to serve JAH and trying to find the right path and that caused him to write such a long letter in return. After all that Ive done im still trying to hang on and be a witness. I finally posted on this website seeking some kind of comfort which I have recieved. -
amac
As many of you know when one go's through this crisis all you need is someone to talk to and thats almost impossible for a JW.
I can appreciate that...when I was starting to seriously question things, I honestly thought I might be going crazy. I thought, am I the only person in the world who thinks like this?!?! Everyone I know and respect would look at me like the spawn of the devil if they knew what I was thinking...how could I possibly be right?!?!? This board and others can be very helpful, but I understand how difficult it is when everyone you know in person would not approve of your thoughts. For me, that was one of the things that made it hard to just float along and go to a few meetings a month...I realized that no matter how much I respected and tolerated the beliefs of those around me (even the beliefs I firmly disagreed with) that they would NEVER respect or tolerate my thoughts or beliefs. Being in a one way relationship like that can be very difficult.
I couldnt contain the things I was reading to my self and I started sharing them with my wife. I soon realized that it was fairly easy to hurt her faith by the things I was sharing with her. I stopped sharing anymore with her because I could see that I was
hurting her faith also.Man, I feel like I'm reading my life story here....very similar to what happened with me. I'll never forget the first time I broached the subject of disagreeing with the Society with my wife. I told her I disagreed with their conclusions on Blood transfusions and making it a DFing offense. It wasn't until later that I learned that the first thing that came to her mind was that she was going to have to leave me. Then later she realized that it was simply a taught reaction and not the right thing to do as we had a young child. When I started to see my thoughts and opinions having an effect on her faith I decided to hold back and try to not influence her as much. I have been very lucky in that my wife has stayed with me and loved me so.
There are a couple different ways to think about your situation...for starters the guilt you feel is only a result of the way you have been taught and is not a worthy guilt. You are doing nothing wrong by sharing your thoughts with your wife, unless she asks you not to and you are going against her will. The whole idea of faith - the assured expectations of things hoped for - is that if it is broken simply by information than it wasn't something worthy of our faith to begin with. Faith should be reserved for those things that do not have sufficient evidence against it. For instance, I can have faith that pigs can fly, but since there is sufficient evidence to prove that wrong, my faith would be dashed. But my faith SHOULD be dashed. In other words, if information is enough to destroy your faith, then whatever it was did not deserve your faith to begin with.
I dont doubt that some elders in some congregations have handled things wrong but they will have to stand before Jehovah for it at the same time. I just dont think that is enough to demonize the whole society. I just dont feel they are trying to hurt people.
I agree, I don't think they are out to hurt people. However, in their desire to protect their "better than the world" image, they often allow people to be hurt. The current policy for elders is that if they receive an accusation of child molestation, they are to call the society. The society will tell them one of two things, depending on what state they are in. If state law requires it, they tell them to report it to the authorities. If state law does not require it (which is the case in most states due to clergy confession laws), they tell them to ask the accused and if they deny it, to drop it. WHY IS THAT? Why wouldn't they report it in all states and allow the authorities who have the resources and expertise determine if their is validity to the crime? Reporting it does not require taking any judicial action or making a judgement of the person, it simply means giving the supposed victim a chance to prove their claim. This policy protects the image of the society by reducing the amount of child molestation charges, but it hurts children. If a child is molested in a non reporting state and they have parents that are very devout JWs, then that child may have to wait until another victim comes forward before the elders take any action. This could mean that the child is repeatedly abused simply for the sake of "not bringing reproach on Jehovah's name" which is code words for not making the WT Society look bad. It's akin to Jesus saying, I'm not going to point out the mistakes of the Pharisee because I don't want to bring reproach on Jehovah's name.
The thought of just ME AND MY BIBLE scares me.
Again, I can understand. When you take your entire foundation for beliefs, action and life choices and shake it to the ground, it's scary, you have nothing left to stand on. It's like you were living in a well protected castle and now just standing on a stone in the middle of the ocean. If I could unknow all I've learned, my life would certainly be easier...it's always easier when you think you have all the answers. Ignorance truly is bliss. It's only when you realize that you DON'T have all the answers that life gets interesting.